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End of East Timor struggle in sight?    

An interview with Joao Carrascalao, leader of the UDT

On 8 April, Joao Carrascalao arrived in Ireland for a two day visit, when he met with The East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign, the Minister for foreign affairs David Andrews, and representatives of Trocaire. Joao Carrascalao is the leader of UDT - one of the two main political parties in East Timor - and he is also one of three East Timorese representatives with observer status at the United Nations talks on the future of East Timor.   

In 1975 Carrascalao led the '11th of August movement', a coup attempt which led to the overthrow of the Portuguese administration, but which ended in two months of Fretilin rule.  Fretilin was seen as the only true pro-independence party in East Timor - a view that Carrascalao rejects - but now Fretilin and UDT are linked through CNRT, an umbrella organisation of pro-independence East Timorese groups under the leadership of the resistance leader Xanana Gusmao. 

While in Ireland Carrascalao kept in touch with events in East Timor. Shortly after his arrival at The East Timor Campaign office he received a fax of a Portuguese newspaper report which for the first time gave a full account the Liquica massacre on April 6th. Previously it was unclear how many people had died or how they had died. There had been reports of machetes being used, but the Portuguese report made clear that most of the casualties occurred when the Indonesian army threw grenades into a church where people had taken refuge from a previous series of attacks by pro-Indonesian militia gangs. It also confirmed that the priest in Liquica had personally counted 25 bodies, although the overall death toll was known to be much higher.  

In an interview with The East Timor Ireland Solidarity Campaign, Joao Carrascalao provided a personal insight into the recent upsurge in violence, into the UN sponsored talks between Portugal and Indonesia, and into the man who leads the East Timorese from house arrest in Jakarta: the man known simply as, Xanana.

Q.  What will happen the militias after independence?

A.  First let me tell you the story of the militias.  When the United Nations congress [October 1998] decided to support self-determination for East Timor, that is when everything started to change. The Indonesians started to arm the militias in East Timor, to start a confrontation, to prove their point that East Timorese cannot get along together.  My personal belief is that if the Indonesian army is withdrawn from East Timor the militias will naturally disappear.  Because above all we are all Timorese, and we can have our arguments but we never come to the situation of fighting each other. I always refuse to say that there was a civil war in East Timor. To me there was not a civil war.

Q.  Are the militia leaders trying to position themselves for a share of power during a transitional period or after independence?

A.  Unfortunately not. I think Tavares and people like that are only instruments of Indonesia. They know that in a transitional period the Timorese people will know exactly who is who.

Q.  So they won't be accepted in any capacity?

A.  No, I don't think so.

Q.  People in ABRI [the Indonesian military] have business interests in East Timor. Will they try to protect them in a free East Timor?

A.  Under my de-colonization plan I point out clearly that the same door they came in, they have to get out.  I know it is a little bit drastic. Things have to be analysed case by case. But in the case of ABRI, they just took properties by force, so they have no rights over these properties.

Q.  Are these properties ABRI's main interest in East Timor?

A.  No. They are trying desperately to prevent the disintegration of Indonesia. I don't think they can stop the process of the disintegration of Indonesia which will happen in the not very distant future. Eventually they will probably try to form a muslim country and they will abandon the eastern provinces like the Moluccas for instance. Indonesia itself is a fictitious country.  They have a lot of different ethnic groups. It's mostly dominated by the Javanese which constitute nearly half of the population of Indonesia. They are oppressing all the other provinces.

Q.  So that's the main motivation from within ABRI: it's the bigger picture of the disintegration of the whole of Indonesia, rather than the interests of individuals who own property in East Timor?

A.  During the Suharto period there was a lot of money channelled to East Timor which ended up in the pockets of the generals so that could be a reason also for them to continue the war in East Timor: to suck all the money out of East Timor.   

Q.  How did you react to the statement of the 27 January when Indonesia first mentioned that it would consider  independence for East Timor if East Timor rejected Indonesia's offer of autonomy?

A.  I had information from inside that an announcement was imminent. I was in Sydney at the time. I immediately left for Portugal and met with the minister of foreign affairs [Jaime Gama] and told him what was going to come. So the announcement didn't catch me by surprise. I knew there was going to be an announcement, and I also knew that Alatas [Indonesia's foreign minister] was against it, but it was a decision by the cabinet. And that decision was made possible by Dewi Fortuna Anwar who is an adviser to President Habibie.

Q.  What brought about the change in policy?

A.  It changed dramatically because, as Alatas said in New York, every door that they knocked on for help, the door opened but the first thing that they see is East Timor. So there was a considerable amount of international pressure.

Q.  This is when Indonesia went looking for foreign aid to relieve the economic crisis?

A.  That's right. International institutions would say 'Yes, you will get help, but you have to improve the human rights situation in East Timor.' Two months ago when I met with the US State Department their message was 'We want to solve the problem of East Timor because it is [coming] between the good relations between Indonesia and America. We cannot have good relations with Indonesia, which is important as a market, because human rights in East Timor always gets in the way.'

Q.  But will the Americans do anything about the militias?

A.  I think they are still very active. Although we have to understand that they have their own way of doing things. But the visit of Madelaine Albright to Xanana Gusmao has no precedent in history: for the Secretary of State to give such an endorsement.

Q.  Who will lead a free East Timor?

A.  I have no doubt at all. There is only one man: Xanana Gusmao. Xanana Gusmao is the natural leader of East Timor. When I heard they [the Indonesians] were going to stage a demonstration in Jakarta against Xanana Gusmao, I said 'I doubt it very much if they will get one Timorese.' They ended up offering money to some Timorese in Jakarta and I advised them to receive the money. I said 'Get the money and don't turn up.' And that's what they did.

Q.  Have you been able to meet with Xanana recently since he was moved to house arrest?

A.  I refuse to meet Xanana while he is in prison. I already made it clear. I have invitations to go Jakarta to meet him. I said 'When you release him I will meet Xanana anywhere. Not in prison, because that's not the place for him. His only crime is to fight for the liberation of his people. So he shouldn't be a prisoner.'      

Q.  Xanana has said on occasion that he won't lead an independent East Timor?

A.  Xanana already made a few statements saying that he doesn't want to be President of East Timor. And I talked to him very seriously about that. 'It's not up to you to say you want or don't want: its up to the people of East Timor. Because you have led these people in the struggle against Indonesia for 23 years, so if the people want to put the responsibility on your shoulders you have to take it.' I understand that he is a very humble man and the position of President of a nation is a very prestigious position.  He always says 'There are other people better qualified than me' but you just have to look around: what Xanana says is what we follow. 
 

The East Timor Solidarity Campaign can be contacted at Room 16, 24 Dame Street, Dublin 2; Phone/fax: 01 671 9207; Email: etisc@ireland.supports.tp; Website: www.freedom.tp
 

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Revised: 15/03/99