fester posted 12-26-98 05:35 AM ET (US)        

Hello-

Im pretty new here, I recognize a few names from H2H stuff, but Ive only been flying Warbirds for a few months, and all of that has been offline, with the exception of getting annialated in H2H a few times.

My online Simming experience comes from Air Warrior, which Iv flown since April. I fly FR and do fairly well, but 99% of my engagements are from a superior advantage in E. Or I bounce fights in progress etc... Hunting for the right opportunity if you will, to exploit my strengths and prey on weaknesses, while hopefully avoiding my weaknesses.

Now learning the WarBirds FM has taken some adjusting, but I love the game, so my struggling is rewarded. But I havent completely gotten the hang of it. Heres an example;

I find someone on ICQ for a H2H matchup. We pick same planes, set fuel loads and hit the air.

Now Im fine on the first pass, I keep as much e as I can as we go vertical, and looking out the top view, so Is my opponent. we still look about even, however that changes as we come H2H for the second pass.

Hes got a ton of E and Im flyin around like I got 1000lb bomb load with 50% throttle

Every once in awhile Ill do ok, but it generally not really close. Or as close as I want it to be. And I have no idea why I did better that time than the time before where I got killed in three passes.

Im decent at E retention in AW (I know its not the same) But I tend to suck at H2H matchups there as well, thats why I always secure an advantage.

H2H has brought out some significant weaknesses in my ability, and Id like to work on them.

Im being told that "Im blowing it at the merge," or that "sometimes I do well at the merge, but was too predicatble after that"

So what Im asking is for "fighting theory" here. Not really specific moves, but the manner in which you go about thumping someone in a roughly co-e same plane matchup. I know how to kill them when I have all the cards.

So here is an idea of where Im at with this.

My stick is scaled pitch and yaw(10, 20, 30, 40 etc up to 90) roll is 100% accross the board.

I am "letting the plane out" when commming over the top. (this is a recent thing, and I havent tried it on enybody yet) I dont know if this accurately describes the manuever, but I back off or unload the plane a bit so that it will accelerate and regain e.

I have the manual trim tabs programmed on my stick and in the last few days flying offline have been using them "a lot", not just at the start or when the plane becomes "completely" unruley. For instance, if Im trimmed out at 300mph and hit the vertical for an Immelman, As soon an I start the manuever I start giving pitch up trim, "A lot" of pitch up trim" while taking off some left roll" that I had to input to get the thing level at 300mph. So in essence Ive given probably a little more Up trim than I needed, tho only on occasion am I trimmed too high at the end of the manuever. I have also started using up trim when in turns, even if at cornering speed, kinda forcing the plane into an out of trim state, or using the trim to help the turn, not alot, but as it is I am certaintly not trimmed in the wrong direction.

Another thing is adding a Lot of trim when I drop a notch of flaps to get the stick back close to neutral.

Ok so these are things Ive been doing the last couple days after repeatedly getting my ass handed to me in a neat little package Is this the right thinking to be using? to be trimming constantly like this? Or to be letting the plane out a bit when fighting roughly co e?

I enjoy all plane types, tho I enjoy E fighting more than turn-fighting.

I really like the Pony, and FW A4 (cant handle A8 too well) the Jug (other notables, but you get the idea)

I would really appreciate any tips in this area.

Thanks in advance

Fester

<Cactus Air Force>

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 12-26-98 06:40 AM ET (US)            

First off, keeping your plane well trimmed will save E, and will give you better performance. That's good.

Now for the hard part. Energy, energy, energy... Where to begin? In a duel, my goal is to get above my opponent. If i can do that, then i have won the fight. Performing an Immelman after the merge is not always the way to win the fight. In fact, the best way to gain energy over your opponent is to gently pull into a sustained, full WEP climb after the merge. He'll get on your tail, but you will climb above him out of guns range.

One of the most interesting fights i've had was with jstr. Both of us were in Spit9s, and both of us went into a sustained climb after the merge. "Oh sh*t" i thought "he knows what he's doing!"

So, my basic philosophy in a duel? Get above your opponent, then kill him. Don't pull lots of G's. If you miss a guns pass, don't turn hard to follow your opponent, rather go vertical into a high yo yo or enter a climb.

You don't have to follow my tactics to the tee, create your own! If your ownly problem is loss of e in an immelman, then you're pulling up to hard after the merge. If you're planning on immelmaning after the merge, do it early. As i understand h2h rules, you can make any maneuver you want after you're within d10 of your opponent. Mix up your merge techniques with different approaches, never do the same thing twice against the same opponent.

Hope this helps!

Tchüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

macker posted 12-26-98 07:46 AM ET (US)            

Hi Fester!

H2H duel is very difficult and also leads to depression hehe.

I entered the simladder in October because I had not been online since 1.11 gave way to 2.0 and I wanted more H2H opponents. In the arena, you choose your opponent (not always of course) as to your advantage over them. Not like that in H2H. H2H for the most part is won or lost on how you handle the merge.

IK has good advice about the merge..by not necessarily always using the immelman, or using it close to the merge and not to do the same manuever twice in a duel.

I use the immelman 99% of the time, but I extend a bit then pull up and watch the opponent out of the top of canopy. While vertical, your able to roll the plane to the disired attack possition as to the attitude of the opponent.

Also, the immelman is a manuever that enables you to gain altitude and change direction...the direction does not have to be 180 degrees. Sometimes I go up to the top of my immelman and roll to a direction that may be 90 degrees. This will force my 180 degree opponent to have to climb and turn to me and he soon is panting and drops to the knees I will float up there, accelerating flat, keeping my new alt...and then I start my engagement.

Of course, as you know, I am an average H2H'er, but I am improving and hope to continue to improve.

We must fight again Fester in the early morning hours BTW...I will H2H for fun, and not score; if you want to.

Happy Holidays!

Macker

Macker (formerly MCCF in 1.11)

jedi posted 12-26-98 09:54 AM ET (US)            

Well, first off, dueling ability is not necessarily of any importance in the arena. Yes, it will help you in a 1v1 fight against the same type aircraft with the same energy level, but you will not generally find yourself in that fight in the arena. In fact, if you want to get the most benefit out of a 1v1 learning situation, go to the training arena and get some tips on defensive evasive manuevers. FAR more valuable than dueling tips IMO.

If you're consistently losing duels to your H2H opponent, ask him to let you fly a better turning plane against him. This will work wonders for your confidence, and provide him with more challenge as well. As you start winning the duels, work your way back "up" to the more difficult aircraft. Also, try using the flaps. It's hard to teach yourself to use them, but if you're fighting the same type plane, and you're both at the "edge," a notch of flaps will give you a brief turning advantage. In the "e-fighter" planes, the flaps will run you out of flying speed tho, so you need to get the advantage and make use of it quickly.

That said, you need to decide what sort of planes you like to fly, and then fly them with discipline. If you're flying a 190 or Jug, you generally don't want to be in turning dogfights at all until you feel like you know the plane inside and out. That means only fighting to your plane's strengths. In the 51, for example, I'll turn with a 190, or another 51 (and sometimes get whupped) but I won't fight a Spit unless he's below me or outnumbered.

Some guys will tell you that "flying skill" is everything in this game, and if you have the misfortune to fight an ace, it's undoubtedly true. But I have a totally different view. Your ability to analyze the situation around you will determine whether you win or lose in the arena. Higher skill allows you to take bigger risks, but being smart is just as valuable as being "good."

--jedi

Wells posted 12-26-98 12:05 PM ET (US)            

Ik has a good point. If you zoom a little first, you can see if your opponent is pulling hard or not. If he is, you have gained some E on him. You can then steepen your climb into a hammerhead (which he shouldn't be able to follow after pulling hard over) or go into a spiral climb or an immelman yourself. Whatever you do, try to position yourself directly above him and with enough altitude that you won't go below him if you dive and attack. Also, while performing immelemans or split-s', rolling 90 degrees while vertical is good at making your opponent have to turn (where he loses E). This is tricky, cause if you roll the wrong way, you can set him up with a perfect 6 shot!

Wurm JG5 posted 12-26-98 12:57 PM ET (US)            

Climb Climb Climb.....

Konrad posted 12-26-98 01:30 PM ET (US)            

I dont see how having an alt advantage makes one think he has won the fight, sure it is a nice thing to have, but there are a ton of things you can do against an oponent who is above you and is diving on you six to once again get a co E state and win the fight. There were lots of fights that i won against pilots that i though were pretty good who were above me, and fights that i lost even though i was above an opponent.

Konrad

Jg77

Kodiak posted 12-26-98 02:24 PM ET (US)            

There are lots of ways to enhance your position at the merge and an immelman reverse is only one of them;

Try autotrim for best combat merge speed before the pass. That saves bleeding E and guessing where the plane is at manually. Trim manually after the maneuvering starts.

Chandelles, pitchbacks, immelmans, hammerheads, hard turns etc all work. Learn them all and when to use them. And BTW - "letting the plane out" is simply unloading it. I use it all the time especially in a chandelle merge maneuver. In H2H E retention isnt the be all and end all of the engagement. Getting a good shot (within reason of course) is where its at. If you blow it and he gains position use all those fancy guns defense and reversal moves. Sucking him in and reversing a bad situation and getting the kill is more satisfying and destroys their confidence quicker than anything.

Lead turn lead turn lead turn. I dont fly H2H with anyone that requires we pass wings level before we maneuver. Proper lead turn and lead positioning is the most critical 1v1 skill there is. Get a bit of angle at the merge and compound it through the engagement. That cant be learned and perfected in a wings level pass. Stating max pre-engagement altitudes is a good idea but never set a hard deck.

YMMV of course.

Kodiak III./JG54

funked posted 12-27-98 02:54 AM ET (US)            

fester:

Nice questions!

There are some long-winded and I am sure well written responses above. Give them all due consideration, but I strongly urge you to purchase "Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert "Mouse" Shaw.

This guy flew Navy (Top Gun, etc.) as well as WB and AW. It's a great book, and he breaks down just about every situation you might encounter.

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

front posted 12-27-98 06:31 AM ET (US)            

You've asked for H2H specific tips...

I duelled a few times in H2H on defts ladder... I noticed that after a while I avoided any "Spitfire Vb" matchups.

H2H using the ROE means you will be knocking on the other guy at a co-alt and co-E merge. If you see the other guy above you at the merge you can call it off no problem.

A co-alt/co-E merge is all about the the first pass (which in the Rules Od Engagement) is silent or cold (no guns fired)

defts ROE won't let you maneuver before d10 on the first pass. After that it is up to you on whether you want to lead turn or keep on going.

From d10 on in the fight is on. You watch the bogey from then on intently to spot how his wings "look" as you merge. Are his wings "parallel" to the ground? Is he going under you? Are his wings "perpindicular" to the ground? Is he even crossing your nose slightly?

This page has some excellent info on the Merge:

http://indigo.ie/~frontacs/WBStored/1vs1MergeTactics.html

You'll see that eagl talks about a move here which is not the usual straight-up Immelman post merge... why? Cos he's talking about a 1 vs 1 merge in the arena... and dissimilar planes. H2H duelling is about similar planes (weights too) co-alt and co-E. eagl talks about the way he merges when you don't know the "E" state of the bogey coming at you.

Personally I have found (with the same-plane-scenario), after about a thousand H2H merges in WB with a few squadmates, that if I go hell for leather into a cranked hi-G vertical lead turn (from below the bogey) at d6 on the first merge (turn HARD to get into the bogeys rear hemisphere) and then make all other turns nose low (lead turns all the time) if we end up at a nose-to-nose turning fight going down then I can blow bits off him.

I've tried the low-G Immelman, far d15-20 extension, Hammerhead, first lead turn nose-LOW , the whole works... nothing works better than the old "chuck the E away for the angles" at the first merge in H2H. Nothing. If that guy is well-versed in H2H and he is doing the same thing then you are hosed if you do anything except crank on the Gs back at him. After a co-alt/co-E merge in H2H you have to be co-ANGLES witha bogey like that. No use being d10 up and away from him in a low-G (or whatever) Immelman with the 2.5 gunnery model. He'll spray you down and score damage... as you worry about your "E". Someone above said "Don't pull Gs." I say DO pull Gs... try it out a few times at least in a H2H duel. When I asked the other guys (who won) what mistake they saw me make they would invariably say "You don't turn tight enough." These are H2H Duelling fights we're talking about not the Arena fights...

Especially if the other guy is in the Spitfire and good at it (as are you in the Spitfire but maybe not so practised). You want to make that guy SEE you gaining angles on him into his rear hemisphere in H2H. Make him start thinking about defense... and spray some ammo at him too even if your nose is nowhere near him. He'll start worrying about net-lag and the rest... you might get a ping if he reverses across your nose. "Not fair!" thinks you? Who was the Luftwaffe experten who fired off all his guns while he was fleeing from some Allied pilots? Galland? Anyway... he said that the Allied pilots saw his guns fires, smoke shoot out etc, and they broke off the chase. He got away. Put some of that red and yellow tracer out at him...

No use conserving ammo in H2H... there are no other bogeys around. Any shot you get is going to hurt. Short or long convergence is up to you. I used H2H practise to get in close at 180yds conv. in the US planes. With WB2.5 I notice that a conv. of 300-500 is just as good. Might as well take the long range shots now...

eadg or someone said that if you do manage to get into a H2H pursuit fight where the bogey is in front of your 3-9 line and you are chasing him for a shot then start to climb slightly. In H2H if a bogey goes down in any fashion then you break high. In a H2H duel he can't run at low-level to an ally so grab some alt and wait.

fd-ace is a good H2H Ladder duellist. I met him in the Spit Vb (20% fuel/10k) a few times... and then I stopped. The tactics there is to turn, turn, turn... hehe. Just crank into the tighest turn you can and keep turning. Down ya go into the spriral... keep turning... down to 100feet... see who augurs first :-)

Don't finish flamers. If the guys oil is gone then climb away. If his engine is pouring black smoke then climb away.

H2H WarBirds is a great place to learn the moves. I meet up with squadmates every Saturday morning for a few hours and we just blast away at each and practise all the moves we can think of until we get so bored we're crying. Then we duel in B25s using the 75mm only to relax... heh.

Finally the place to ask for the best tips on H2H dueling is not here really. It's from the guy who just knackered you 3-0 in your last fight. Ask him for some tips. He should (and better!) give you a few lines on what HE saw YOU do wrong and how he took advantage of it. That is the best way to learn. Guy said to me once "The worst thing you can do is go online and die and not know why your are dying. When you go online, die, and KNOW why you died... that is when you start winning."

cheers

front

WarBirds Tips Storage

http://indigo.ie/~frontacs/WBStored/

Kats posted 12-27-98 12:28 PM ET (US)            

I assume your using the same plane type and fuel load in these matches. If your opponent is beating you in the zoom, you are probably pulling too many G's to get to the vert., or your blowing the hammerhead.

Jester posted 12-27-98 04:35 PM ET (US)            

ill let you in on a big secret. people cheat

people dive to merge alt, plain and simple so they are faster than people that just auotrim to the merge.

how do i know? there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure, but ive done some tests and im a pretty good pilot (G) and i know there is no way people can get above me if all things being equal.

although real manuevers come in handy

lead turns are huge. but if you duel someone like =scop= he will turn hard and make you turn hard as well--burning every ounce of e u have.

h2h is a growing process, u learn and get better, keep at it. i went through the same thing you did and it was very humbling at first, but i learned how to handle the 1 vs 1's better.

alot of people are great at 1 vs 1 but in the arena they suck; and vice versa.

learn guns defense and gunnery. like ik mentioned, the spit duel we had was prolly one of the best duels ive ever had. guns defense saved my butt on it tho. he had the e on me and i made a reversal and took a tough shot. i got lucky, but lost the duel overall. damn e retaining runner

also something i learned from deft is "best cornering speed" it is sometimes better to turn at say 250 ias then go vert till u stall out and reverse.

again SA matters, watch what they do and react. they break in a hard turn u go for the sky and hammerhead on em when they stall out chasing you.

i also hate the damn oil leak shots.

Jester ~Hell's Aces~

IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 12-28-98 01:53 AM ET (US)         

Front summed it up best with his post bro....

Couple of things I want to throw in for ya about H2h. After you do your dual, ask your partner to work with you while practising any technique that you think you need practice on, and whatever plane you want to work on. (ie scissors, hammerheads, lag rolls...whatever)

I like to fly 109's and 190's so I'll ask somebody to fly, say a spit, so I can practice using my planes advantages against his weaknesses for both offense and defense. This provides you with a very realistic training tool for use later in the arena's or SL's against pilots of various skills.

Most people are willing to help you with this because it provides them with a challenge as well, and "scoring" isnt an issue. You will find that some aircraft just are not worth messing with in a co-e situation due to your lack of skill or your chosen planes performance characteristics, and the best option is to run away. Thats a good lesson if you like to land your sorties, and is very realistic in the historic sense too.

Same plane h2h duels are pretty boring due to the fact that most of the one's I have been in have ended up as "jousting" matches where we both go vertical and end up head onning each other.

But!!! Remember to use that opportunity to train in your chosen ride against your chosen nmy plane type, and it is a very rewarding experience.

Luck,

"Hey...nice cannons"

Idi