Dekker posted 01-05-99 04:05 PM ET (US)        

Has anyone in a Spitfire been killed by an FW190 after an energy pass and wondered how in the heck that bird got turned around and got on your six so fast?

Usually that would be DocDoom or Drex or GunJam in the ID. =)

1. What I would like to know is how do people actually do Lag Rolls to reacquire a bogie quickly after an attack run. Tell me the exact stick movements and views you might use. How hard do you pull? blackout?

2. When do you use it? After an e-pass, at a certain speed?

3. Which planes do you use it with? or Against? P51? Zeke? Spitfire? 9/14?

Spitfire drivers just crank it around we don't have to worry about lag rolls... or do we?

Thanks!

Dekker

LtLite posted 01-05-99 04:52 PM ET (US)            

I use this maneuver all the time in a Spit. Sometimes when I'm rolling in on somebody I'll notice I'm coming in at sharp an angle off their tail. If the situation allows, I'll just pull in behind them and shoot. If it's crowded and I don't want to blow a lot of my energy, I'll simply roll wide to the outside of the turn, pull under, and swoop in behind them. This does a couple of things for me:

1. It reduces the AOT (angle off of the tail) giving me a better shot.

2. If I'm above the bogey when I start my attack, it gives me a boost of speed that I can use during and after my attack.

3. Sometimes it confuses the bogey when I roll away from him and he relaxes a bit. If I can get a bit below him, then the fun really begins.

Essentially its a maneuver you use when you see you're going to over shoot the target either because you're too steep in your AOT and closing too fast. To me it's not a maneuver you use too close in, but something you use to adjust your attack parameters as you're closing. Try in on the drones, they're very cooperative about it.

Hope this helps! (not that I'm really an expert you understand)

Dekker posted 01-05-99 05:19 PM ET (US)            

What I wonder is how much you pull? and if the bogie is turning left, do you pull towards the outside of his turn, or inside the turn. Do you keep vis on him at all times?

I understand it is to stop an overshoot or to even quickly get another pass at a bogie.

Does your stall horn go on? I find it often turns into a hi Yo-Yo instead of a sort of outside barrel roll. (I do use the Lag Roll, but was kinda makin' a funny there

How much angle does your nose point up at the beginning?

What planes do you use that maneuver?

Even t&burners?

Thx. =)

Stiglr posted 01-05-99 05:25 PM ET (US)            

This is a bread and butter move, and now that I've gotten the hang out of it, I use it even more than the high yo-yo I used to use all the time. As Ltlt says, it does sometimes cause your opponent to relax or lose you in his dweebish attempts to turn his way out of an impending 20mm enema.

In all makes of Bf109, I use lagrolls to get better angles as I dive into the attack and to control overspeeding; there's nothing worse than having the airplane "lock up" as you're nearing firing range. I try to anticipate this and use the lag roll to "buy time" while the bogie sets himself up for an easy lunch by turning hard.

Here's how it usually happens for me:

1) I spot lunch below me, and do an SA scan to determine that there is no greater threat, and affirm that I have time to make a gun pass without setting myself up for some other dweeb. Eric Hartman called this the "See" and "Decide" phases.

2) I dive into the "attack" phase, hoping for stealth, but no; at some point, I ascertain that bogie sees me and begins some evasive as I close in. Or, perhaps I decide I'll be locking up in compression by the time I have the shot. It is at this point that I decide to use the lag roll. For the sake of this argument, let's assume I'm diving in on a bogie's 7:00, he's now at 11:00 low and begins a break turn to the left.

3) I've probably already throttled down before I began the dive, and since I'm probably going to be climbing some, I go to 100% throttle. I roll about 45 degrees to the right of level, i.e. AWAY from the bogie. Views here are inconsequential, since the bogie will disappear under my belly and/or left wing. But I have an idea where he's going.

4) As I pull up (20 to 45 degrees, depending on how tight I want the roll to be) and roll away, I may try to acquire the bogie out the right side of the cockpit as I come inverted. I'll try to make the roll "lazy" so that my movement does not cloud my view of what the bogie is doing. I *never* have to pull so hard that I grey or black out. The goal is to determine which heading the bogie will take or determine if he's "lost me". Since the bogie broke left, I'll likely be adding some right turn and rudder, trying to form an oblique "opposite" of his break turn. Let's assume the bogie made about a 3/4 turn and is now heading under my canopy at 12:00 "high" (actually low, below me) and moving from about 1:00 thru 7:00. I'll chop throttle again at this point, lower the nose and roll onto the bogie's new heading, perhaps cheating some to the inside of his turn if I think he's gonna keep cranking it around. At this point I'm using the forward/up view and forward views a lot. If for some reason I've blown the maneuver, or feel I'm not in a good position, I can still roll back uninverted and climb away, reset, or whatever (Hartman called this reassesment time or Coffee Break).

If it looks good, I'll keep diving in for a nice tracking shot on a slow bogie.

The hardest thing about learning this maneuver is to resist the seemingly overwhelming urge to always turn TOWARDS your opponent, and to trust that you know what he's gonna be doing as you purposely lose sight of him. When I was learning this, I'd go back to the high yo-yo again and again, and bogie would know *exactly* what I was up to. Then, I *MADE* myself go the other way, and voila: the bogie was more confused than I was, and gave me an easy shot. That's what finally sold me on this. Not to mention that rolling away from the bogie gives you a more relaxed move than the hi yo-yo, which forces you to stay "on top" of the bogie, with him in your lift vector (straight out the top of your canopy) as he does a break turn; by necessity, your yo-yo maneuever will have to be much tighter and the bogie harder to track.

LtLite posted 01-05-99 05:36 PM ET (US)            

For me, the amount I have to pull depends upon how far away I start my lag roll. The closer you are, the more you're going to have to pull to get in there. Also, if you're not high above the bogey, then you'll probably have to pull harder because you're going to wind up underneath him. When I use this technique I usually don't have to pull that hard. In fact, I don't want to because I don't want to bleed too much energy.

Yes, sometimes it does turn into a sort-of outside high yo-yo. This can be good because it can drastically reduce your overshoot potential or at least manage it in a way that you end up on the bogey while at the same time decreasing the AOT for a better shot.

It seems counterintuitive (whew!) at first, but after you use it a while you begin to see the benefits and some kinky ways to use it.

For example, if a bogey is slightly below me and coming at fairly high angle across my nose, rather than trying a high yo-yo and a tight turn to get on him, I will simply roll wide to the outside and under, gaining speed and a bit of angle from a gravity assisted spiral turn (I just made that term up ). I can usually get a good snap shot this way without having to give up too much energy.

Probably didn't answer your questions, but I had fun trying.

Good Luck!

mikeko posted 01-05-99 05:38 PM ET (US)            

Let me see, LtLite. You are at the high AOT (angle of tail) to your target and would need to pull up hard to get on his tail. You would blow a lot of energy and possibly black out and still not guaranteed to get a shot if he starts turning.

So instead you go in the opposite direction so he thinks you are not interested in him and does not start to turn. Then you have more room to turn and do not have to pull as hard. Besides you go lower so he does not see you any more in his low-6. Clear so far.

But you go lower and increase your speed before and during the turn, so in your turn you pull more Gs and lose more energy and end up slower then necessary. It looks like low yo-yo but there you need energy and sacrifice some angle in hope to retrieve it later (in a better turning plane). In the situation you describe you do not have a problem with energy, but do not have angle to shoot.

In that situation you may want to convert energy to angle if you have a huge excess of speed - by turning 90 or more degrees at corner speed. Usually it is not a good idea - you blackout, you overshoot, his friends show up and you are slow...

Speed prevents you from performing an efficient turn, so the purpose of the vertical maneuvers like lag roll or high yo-yo is to deposit that extra energy into your altitude bank account, perform the earth-gravity assisted turn, may be even use some roll to substitute for turn while you are close to vertical and then withdraw that speed and go after him from much better angle.

High yo-yo is used when you are in the lag pursuit (your nose is pointed behind him) and are going to overshoot because you are going too fast.

Lag roll is used when you are going fast inlead pursuit (you nose is pointed in front of him) and there is no way you can get on his tail (unless you roll opposite and then after him just to let him pass by, like in your maneuver).

In both cases you pull up. In yo-yo you are rolling towards him (both his plane and his direction) to keep him in view. In Lag displacement roll you roll in the opposite direction to were he is going, but still towards his plane, because you were pointed in front of him. So you do not lose sight of him either.

At the top you are inverted looking at him below through the top of your canopy and flying close to your sustained turn speed. You can perform a much more efficient turn now even tighter then the sustained turn because earth gravity is helping you. If he changes direction you can just stop and reverse your roll. Actually you can go down like in split-S and just roll towards him. He would never turn faster then you can roll. Then you come down screaming at his tail.

yo-yo from above looks like incredibly tight turn. Lag roll from above may look like a 90 degree turn.

BTW, I would not be surprised if your maneuver worked much better then my rolls since theoretical knowlege never killed anybody yet.

To Stiglr:

In the perfect lag roll you cannot loose sight of him because with lead pursuit while he is going to your left, he is still to you right. So when you roll right, you see him all the time. Of course you can start your pull-up when he is already in front of you (pure pursuit) and loose him for a moment. So while it is contr-intuitive to roll opposite his turn, it is not as scary. It takes some fancy thumbwork to keep him in view all the time and watch your own speed and attitude. But as you said, it is one maneuver easily trained on drones or even some ground targets.

miko-- 416 RCAF

Lemsko posted 01-05-99 05:59 PM ET (US)            

Perhaps this one helps to describe it:

http://www.fortunecity.de/anlagen/strandbad/1/lagroll.avi

Baal posted 01-05-99 07:40 PM ET (US)            

Hi Dek,

The lag roll is one of the few maneuvers I use. Primarily when I see I'm about to overshoot my target and I don't think he's gonna break. ie he's chasing a friendly. If I can't get the shot, or miss the shot, I chop the throttle some, pull up gently about 30 degrees, and roll away from the target. I watch for the con out of my 3 or 9oc view as I complete the roll and skid in behind him again.If I think he's gonna break, I either do a hi yo-yo or zoom up to reposition myself for another attack.

Magnus posted 01-05-99 08:02 PM ET (US)            

Dekker,

This sounds really cheesey, but in TOP GUN the movie there is a great description of the lag roll. If you remember when they <all the pilots> are in the classroom doing "classwork" and Kelly McGillis walks in <BTW she is HOT!> and gives suggestions to maverick on a problem he is working on. He talks about quickly pulling lead and going for a high speed guns snapshot pass when she suggests to "roll up and away" from the bogey and saddle up low six for a rear quarters missle shot. If you watch that scene, it will describe perfectly a lag roll. Although it is talking about jets, it works in props too. Especially in a FW.

Also, if your bogey continues to turn away, just saddle up in a lag pursuit position <page 65 Fig. 2-3 in Shaw's book>. This is a cold 6 position where your turning arc is wider and longer <and faster if you maintain position> than your bogeys. Also, this is illustrated in TOP GUN. This is what Ice and Maverick are doing when they argue about taking the shot, Ice pulls off...jet wash...Goose dies...you know the rest. I know it is a kinda cheesey movie, but they have a few good illustrations in it

Magnus

DocDoom posted 01-05-99 08:33 PM ET (US)            

From Stigler :

:The hardest thing about learning this maneuver is to resist the seemingly overwhelming urge to always turn TOWARDS your

This is so true. In my outline of the Barrel Roll Attack (which employs the lag displacement roll to aquire a bad guy who has a better rate of turn, or when you are facing an excess energy overshoot, or you need to get saddled from an initially bad position off their tail, at a large crossing angle behind them) I go to some pains to instill in the reader that ROLLING YOUR LIFT VECTOR OFF OR AWAY FROM THE TARGET rather than keeping it on them (ala high yo-yo) is absolutely essential, however "wrong" it may feel to you at first.

It works like a charm, and once you do it right you'll be amazed. You'll wonder how you ever managed without it ;]

Magnus weighed in with:

:Also, if your bogey continues to turn away, just saddle up in a lag pursuit position <page 65 Fig. 2-3 in Shaw's book>. This is a cold 6 position

Page 27 "Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch"

(a good "ribbon" illustration of this move)

Page 27 "Air to Air Gunfighter"

(same illustration but smaller)

Sorry to advertise here in this manner, but I have covered these moves (in text and the spoken word) many times, in lecture situations and in plain conversation and yet when folks "see" it as displayed in a "ribbon" ACM diagram ... THEN they go "aha!" and "I think I've got it now" ...and so on ;]

One of the nicest things I get these days is a message on private in the arena where someone says "I tried that BRA from your book out and it worked PERFECTLY !" ... makes my day in fact ;]

I hope I'm not just a sucker for a kind word ;]

Doc.

Dekker posted 01-05-99 10:13 PM ET (US)            

Thanks for proving there is still civilized conversation and intelligent topics somewhere on this board.

Here is some more. =)

I also think it is a key maneuver for Guns only dogfighting.

DocDoom posted 01-06-99 12:37 AM ET (US)            

Excellant Dekker, excellant example ! I like to employ them in instances where my AOT (angle off the tail) is much more extreme (such as a fast P-51 turning into me AFTER passing across my nose) but your illustration is certainly what I would call "standard" and one I use ALL THE TIME ;]

Doc.

Dekker posted 01-06-99 03:01 AM ET (US)            

Thanks Doc,

yeah its useful, except the picture doesn't quite show that you often are inside the bandits turn when you go up and over and turn AWAY towards the outside of the bandits turn then see him out the top of your canopy. Then tuck in and gravity assist to pull in dead or low 6 again.

It kinda shows an offset roll to control overshoot, not just to reaquire a bogie.

=)

thx!

Dekker

DocDoom posted 01-06-99 03:25 AM ET (US)            

quote:

:yeah its useful, except the picture doesn't quite show that you often are inside the bandits turn when you go up and over and turn AWAY towards

One of the things I was most proud of when I wrote "The Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch" is exactly that ... the BRA I drew on page 27 illustrates the lag roll inverted "bandit check" which you then roll out of with your lift vector away from the bogey before pulling down around the outside and in behind the bandit.

I have received a lot of feedback telling me that this one illustration is a lot of peoples favorite move now ;]

(shuffles off to the bar to order another drink)

Doc.

roblex posted 01-06-99 07:44 AM ET (US)            

Oddly enough I have just come across another description of the lag roll. I was registering for the Blitzkreig scenarion when I noticed a banner for Debrief Magazine. Clicking on it took me to the home page that has a PDF format article on how to perform the Lag Roll.

Roblex

Dekker posted 01-06-99 12:01 PM ET (US)            

Dang!! good catch roblex!!

Here it is, its by Tom "KC" Basham.

Great mag!

www.bearzone.com/debrief/issue3/airstrike.pdf

www.bearzone.com/debrief

Dekker

Stiglr posted 01-06-99 12:18 PM ET (US)            

Doom wrote:

quote:

:Excellant Dekker, excellant example ! I like to employ them in instances where my AOT (angle off the tail) is much more extreme (such as a fast

This, as a reply to dekker's ribbon, answer the criticism to my description of lag roll as posted by mikeko.

To mikeko: if you factor in a greater initial angle off the tail, you can see how your rolling away from a turning bogie *will* cause you to momentarily lose sight of him. This is much more the case in a true lag roll than in a barrel roll attack, where you're using the lag roll to eliminate overtake, as opposed to using it to improve/create your gunnery solution.

Dekker posted 01-06-99 09:29 PM ET (US)            

Another thing is that 300 yards of netlag lets you go off and do this maneuver, keeping E, and the nme may lose track of your position, or think you are flying away because he sees a 400 ms delayed picture of your aspect.

The bogies and also the nme that may be on your six will have a harder time following that through.

Also when inverted you have a free chance to check your six throughout the roll.

What other popular rolls maneuvers are there?

The Barrel Roll Attack?

I use that for HOs or Bomber attacks.

Is there others that may be around?

Dekker posted 01-08-99 01:53 PM ET (US)            

Forgot to add.

I had an excellent fight with Sick and Dave on RogerWilco last night as the purps defended from the gold hordes.

We were in P51Ds and Spit14s. There was a case in all the different fights where I came up about line abreast with another Spitfire.

We were in about a 15 plane dogfight, he didn't seem to see me.

I essentially used a lag roll to pull em, roll over and slide under his six. He didn't see me the whole time. (I was lucky)

The idea of using the vertical and keeping view is a real milestone for alot of folks to "click" with. And usually their ACM improves immensely.

Dekr