Posted by: Strider 417

Posted on: 12:56:22 11/06/98

Message: Last night I was up defending f11 from the green (and red)hordes in a spit 9. I drifted south with a squadie and wound up over the green field to the south of 11.

After an inconclusive engagment with a high p47 we got split up and I went after a mosquito quite a bit lower than me. By the time I killed his elevator, the immediate viscinity was swarming with greens and I was only at 3k or so, with many up higher. A lot of them seemed to be heavy, preping for a trip to 11, so I ran for the deck westward.

I *though* I got away scot-free but a quick roll to look at my low 6 showed 2 mustangs at d30 and closing fast on the deck.

I figured my only chance was to turn into them and show the mustangs my teeth- hoping to damage one at least. Bad move killed my E, I missed, and one of them got my radiator.

They both proceded to E-fight my poor spit to death, and it was -val-- that potted the kill (nicely done, I might add).

So my question:

What would YOU do. low, 300mph, 2 ponies at d30 and closing at 400+.

Stridr 417

Posted by: Scot (Val_DoD) Valline

Posted on: 19:07:50 11/06/98

Message:

: After an inconclusive engagment with a high p47 we got split up and I went after a mosquito quite a bit lower than me.

Did the 47 ping you? I flew only a couple sorties in the 51B last night. I flew several in the 47C/D.

: They both proceded to E-fight my poor spit to death, and it was -val-- that potted the kill (nicely done, I might add).

If I was the 51 thnx. If not heheheh thnx too :-).

: So my question:

: What would YOU do. low, 300mph, 2 ponies at d30 and closing at 400+.

Personally I would have gone into a scissors when they were at D10-12. Remember that do to netlag when they are D10 to your 6 view, you may be D5 to thier forward view, and well within guns range. I would also force them to bleed thier energy in the vertical plane, sunce the Spit holds E so well. I also find that any kind of barrel roll manuevor works against all but the most experienced WBs pilots.

Happy hunting (I know you get me often enough hehehe)

val

Posted by: =Gryf=, CO Rogue Gryffons

Posted on: 18:47:48 11/06/98

Message:

Every time I have an e fighter closing fast on my 6 I do this as a reverse:

Roll to about 60 degrees bank, pull nose sround in a turn.. Opposite the Torque of the opposing fighter (This means right if anything but a Spit XIV is behind you).

Continue to pull a turn keeping sped high, this forces them to turn a bit to keep sights on you.

At about d9 or d10 (It's all dependant on his speed and such, work on the timeing), Reverse your turn and immeadiatly pull up rolling the AC into a nice barrel roll. 90% of the time the enemy blacks up on the sudden up manunver, he's going to fast, pulling too many G's. If you did the timing JUST right you finish the roll just after he goes thru the center of it, placing you square on his 6. Couple of Pings will warn him off or cause him to run.

Ride with me sometime, I'll show you how it's done.

=Gryf=

Posted by: wily

Posted on: 14:52:01 11/06/98

Message:

Understand that my perspective is wholly disfunctional. I am a recovering Ki43/A6M3 addict. I USED to charge into furballs and become fur myself...injuring many, killing few and almost always being digitally re-animated (unless my wife called and I chose to leave well enough alone for the evening).

ANYWAY...

Remember your physics courses? P51s charging up the pike are chock full of KINETIC energy. Knowing this, their courses can be predicted within a narrow band.

You, in the Spit, are a better turner (you know this).

What I would have done?

Well...if I was close to a purp base, I would have simply landed in a field at the most oppportune moment, gotten out of my airplane and mooned the 51's.

However, the fight isn't over, just because there are two! A slower airplane will turn a tighter radius than a faster one...but a faster airplane might equalize the arc-distance...understood?

Spits don't roll really well until you coordinate it with rudder. Try a horizontal scissors, breaking opposite the 51's and stay close to the ground...and be frantic about it. Their stall is more pronounced than yours...

In other words, hope for a manuever kill.

wily.

Posted by: -bmbm-, CO RSAF

Posted on: 15:29:45 11/06/98

Message:

1. Make them feel secure that you're running, all the while keeping vis.

2. Guns defense at minimum safe distance.

Or, start a gentle, very gentle, climb in either direction, then break hard and down into the opposite as they get within range. At that speed they won't be rolling very well.

3. Steer for home and repeat as necessary.

The main thing is to have both bandits in roughly the same area. It gets progressively harder if they split to either side of you, so maneuver until they're both off the same quarter. If you can manage it.

FWIW

Posted by: Fergus VVS 16.Gv.IAP

Posted on: 15:43:21 11/06/98

Message:

It depends what your objective is. You want to land, get out alive, or drag 'em down with you.

My approach would be run first and fight only as a last resort. Make them chase you at least until they get to D10, that'll get you a long way closer to home. If they have any sense they do not really want to follow you low into enemy territory.

Once at full throttle and them not quite close enough to start shooting I would pull up into a high yo-yo to one side (with the torque depending on the spit) and reverse on them, perhaps even with full loop and following immelman. This will preserve my energy better then a flat turn, get me some alt and a better view of what they are up to. I rarely use rudder, which bleeds to much energy in my view.

They'll probably come charging up the hill guns blazing and blow some of their precious E. I'll let them pass below my right wing pull up some more, half roll to dive after them and see if I can get some shots at them.

P51's in E fighting mode will most likely extend some ways + gain alt and leave it at one pass initially. This will give me some time to dive in the direction of my base and let them resume the chase. Even if they're a real team and split up following the initial merge, my resumed flight will force them into another stern chase situation and negate the 2 vs 1 advantage for the moment.

If one decided to turn with me I'd keep an eye on the other while using the Spit's manouverability to kill the other. Unless you are one on one and noone else is around do not try the flat turnfight with flaps down at which the Spit excells. Use high and low yo-yos to preserve energy. The object of this game is to get in a few pot-shots here or there, but primarily getting back to base, so I'd head for home at the first chance.

Now lets assume they got close again and I have less speed then I had before. Plan B goes into effect. I go into a climbing roll and really slow myself down. They will overshoot. I'll take another shot. They will extend to regain their E (if they are still alive). I have another chance to make a run for it. Sometimes slow moving tough planes (like the one pictured above) have a real chance against e-fighters because their speed only allows them to make one effective pass while you have a lot of time to figure out how to avoid that pass.

There's so much more options, but I've got to go run for home and eat something :)

Fergus

Posted by: funked =925 CABS=

Posted on: 15:57:26 11/06/98

Message:

The earlier responses all seemed to urge a defensive maneuver. I would not do this quite yet - D30 is plenty of room to reverse efficiently (i.e. without losing energy), and 300ias gives you some energy to work with. You are not going to run away from them in your Spit IX, so you might as well try to kill them or at least slow them down.

The most efficient reversal is to smoothly execute a half-loop, then roll wings level at the top. At this point you still want to have about 150ias or so.

Now you still have an energy deficit, but they no longer have a position advantage. They still have a numerical advantage however...

So go for a quick kill, an HO or front-quarter shot. They will be close now, and hauling ass. If they are smart they will zoom and hold you at arm's length until you run out of speed. But 90% of the time, one of them will come at you. Blow his wings off.

Then you need to find the other guy. If he gets real agressive, force him to try a scissors. This will slow the fight down, and you will have and advantage due to the thrust-weight advantage of the spit.

If he's real dumb, you'll enter a circling fight, and the spit's sustained turn will see you through.

If he is smart, he won't get agressive. He will energy fight you - what Shaw calls "pitchback" techniques. You need to try to increase your energy (i.e. climb) but keep enough speed on hand to make a quick move each time he attacks. This is hard, requires timing, etc. And if he is a good shot, you will take damage eventually.

Try to move towards home a little between each of his passes, but be ready to evade a guns solution. If you get enough energy, or he screws up, you might get a shot when he overshoots. If you can get enough speed to go vertical, you can always try turning (vertically and horizontally) into his attack and going for a forward quarter/HO shot as he dives on you.

Anyways the keys are:

1. Don't just keep running. You will die.

2. Kill one quickly.

3. Buy Bob Shaw's book "Fighter Combat" from Argo's Bookstore! Most of the stuff I said above is straight out of his section which addresses this exact situation.

4. Don't fly a slug like the Spit IX and you wouldn't have this problem. 8^)

Funked

Posted by: starry

Posted on: 17:32:42 11/06/98

Message:

: So go for a quick kill, an HO or front-quarter shot. They will be close now, and hauling ass. If they are smart they will zoom and hold you at arm's length until you run out of speed. But 90% of the time, one of them will come at you. Blow his wings off.

I have to disagree with this little bit here. I'd certainly go for the reversal in a Spit, and I'd be climbing most of the time they closed to gain as much E for the merg as possible, but I'd avoid the HO like the plague.

The chances of winning a HO 2v1 are close to zero, so barrel roll as they get close and spoil their shot, then go verticle again and reverse into them (make sure you have enough speed in the merg for this).

As you said, the idea is to gain as much E as possible using the Spit's climb before commiting to a real fight. Eventually they'll have to run away or be killed (if they don't fight as a team). It's very hard to beat a Spit if you let it get in close. If they extend you now have a little bit of alt you can use to extend yourself.

...Just another iron in the fire.

Steve

Posted by: avin

Posted on: 14:02:04 11/06/98

Message:

: I figured my only chance was to turn into them and show the mustangs my teeth- hoping to damage one at least. Bad move killed my E, I missed, and one of them got my radiator.

You do have other options. I probably wouldn't have turned when you did, but dragged them somewhat closer to home first. Friendlies might show up. By the time they're d15, it's time to think about your move. A break at d10-d12 (gentle initially and harder while you figure out if they're following), potentially followed either by scissors or by an unloaded dive in the opposite direction, is safest to feel out the quality of your opponents.

The moment of truth is that first break. Watch what they do carefully. If they split, you're probably flying old hands. But if they both try and make the kill, essentially flying the same course *as if they were alone* instead of setting you up for the other guy, then you could still win, depending on how quickly you can kill one of them. Every moment you stay alive in the arena can change your options, and restrict theirs.

On of the guys on you was val? I wouldn't worry about what happened. He's damn good.

avin

Posted by: Redcoat/--rc-- 417 Sqdn RCAF

Posted on: 13:49:09 11/06/98

Message:

: What would YOU do. low, 300mph, 2 ponies at d30 and closing at 400+.

First thing I would do, is look for friendlies to dive under. Failing that, and it usually does fail, I would crack my knuckles and give 'er a go.

If there are lots of other greens say 50-60 away, then you are as good as dead, so give it your best shot. Rest assured, the hordes will descend on you. However, if it is just you and your two friends, all is not lost.

The key to a fight like this is to keep as much of your energy as possible between manuevers. Here is what I would do.

Don't blow your E in a flat turn. Bad move.

Maybe a gentle climb to port, since you may need that torque to help you in a few seconds, watching out the back. As they close, yo-yo around, and my choice is to avoid the headon. You want to be coming back at them with a bit of smash. As you merge, look behind to see what they do.

If they zoom away and climb above you, then tighten the parachute straps. If they break turn and try and get on your tail, then your odds got better. Either way, keep on zooming through. Use your speed to extend and climb up. If they start closing again, repeat your previous merge. They objective here, reverse the energy advantage. This is fairly easy in a Spit. Shooting them is secondary at this point. Try to get above them. Once you get above them and have the advantage, then you can fight on your terms.

When you get in a tough fight, like the one you mentioned, look at all your options. Break up your fight into smaller fights. Win each smaller fight, and you will win the bigger fight. When I enter a fight (given the hordes aren't around) and I don't have the E advantage, my first goal is to get the E advantage. This can take 2 seconds or it can take 2 minutes depending on the skill of the enemy. I'll take a shot if it happens, but that isn't my first objective. Sometimes going for the shot can get you in a world of trouble. This is a general rule. Saying that there are times where ya just have to batten down the hatches and fight tooth and nail. You aren't always going to win, but when you do it feels great.

Posted by: Rojo (S-2, The Buccaneers)

Posted on: 14:26:03 11/06/98

Message:

If you spotted them back at d30, then you've got a few precious seconds to "make the one calll that does it all." To quote Robert Heinlen, "Seconds are jewels beyond price in combat." So use those few seconds before the situation forces you into action to call to your countrymen for help. Give them your position and heading as a minimum. With that done, try to stay alive. Take any snap shots that come your way of course, since if you surrender all initiative you'll die faster. But if no other enemy are in sight, make'em work to nail you. One thing I've noted is no one calls for help when their offensive in a fight, only if they're in trouble. Its an obvious fact, but one often overlooked.

Rojo

Posted by: llbm MOL

Posted on: 13:42:57 11/06/98

Message:

I would'nt do radical scissors tho. More of a rolling scissors which makes you a harder target and if they see you gain alt they ussually go for the kill. They HAVE to burn E to go for the kill. If thier good they'll just send 1 guy in while the other gets alt. Either way if you can get 1 of them to burn E and turn a bit with you, you've got a 30% chance to live:) Get him smokin and Run! Its easy to avoid only 1 E fiter in a spit and still even sometimes get a shot on him:)

LLBMOUT!!!

Posted by: =ram1=

Posted on: 13:34:48 11/06/98

Message:

I would wait till they were D12 and then start scissors series breaking sharply back and forth. If they decide to pull up I would continue on my way until they dove down on me again then repeat the process. If they decided to slow down and engage I would turn hard and bleed their E and try to out fight them that way.

If one slowed down the other got alt, then it becomes tougher situation and just have to make best of bad situation and try and turnfight the slower plane and hope the other guy is a bad shot.

=ram1=

Posted by: fd-ski S/L Squadron 303 (Polish) RAF

Posted on: 13:23:26 11/06/98

Message:

Smart P51 driver will stay fast. If you can make them blow their gun pass, you will earn another 2 mintes before they set up again. Aviod passes the best you can, and head to the nearest field yelling on 104 "HELP HELP HELP !!! " :)

It's not hopeless, but it's not good either...

fd-ski

Posted by: P/O Gazoo, 401 Squadron RCAF Rams

Posted on: 13:09:36 11/06/98

Message:

I usually keep on trucking to the safeness of the acurate ack. I probably would have started a gentle climb, trying to keep my speed at about 200 mph. Either way they are going to engage you. My thoughts on trying to run are just that you are closer to home. I might have tried to play the unsuspecting fool too. do an Barrel roll down when they got to about d12, and try for a snap shot. They may have gotten cockey...

But if they were smart phony drivers, and it sounds like they were. Check your chute straps, make sure the hood is free and clear and be ready to turn and burn. A small prayer helps in those situations too. Maybe even a promise that you intend to keep this time.

P/O Gazoo, 401 Squadron, RCAF Rams

YO-G

Posted by: bubba Maj. Red Raiders

Posted on: 21:30:13 11/06/98

Message:

:2 mustangs at d30 and closing fast on the deck.

I found myself in the same sort of situation, also in a Spit 9.

Although I sure don't have a tried and true method, what's worked best has been to pull a tight turn and shoot em in the face. Then keep up a turnfight really, really low. That often results in a lawndart if one of the enemy dives on me too fast.

A surprising number of Mustang drivers don't know that you don't want to blow your E right in front of a Spit 9.

Posted by: F/L --Rf-a Squadron 303 (Polish) RAF

Posted on: 18:05:39 11/06/98

Message:

I would run back to base until they closed to d10-ish. This would (i hope) give me time to reach some friends. With them at d10, I would turn hard to port or strbrd and try to avoid their Boom and Zooms. It is my opinoin that these are rather easy to avoid in a Spit (even when faced with two P-51s). I would concentrate on avoiding their passes, not shooting at them. Also, I would yell over the R/T like crazy!!!

Although this is a rather no-brainer tactic (nothing special), it worked for me before, several times too. In the Halsley in the Atlantic SL, I got away from 2 190s like that (jagr and nasa might remember that) :)

--Rf-a F/L Squadron 303 (Polsih) RAF