Duckwing6 posted 02-25-99 02:48 AM ET (US)        

How do i avoid that a nimble enemy (everything more manouverable than a BUFF gives me a head on situation after every zoom climb?

I've tried spiral climbs but i can't get them to work properly (slow and low E opponents seem to be easily able to out climb my hog ?)

so if i try a straight zoom out or even a high Yo-yo following their breaks i'm usually confronted with a head on every time i'm pointed back at them.....

tips ?

Phil (DW6)

Jekyll posted 02-25-99 06:02 AM ET (US)            

Hehe.. I had exactly the same problem in a fight at the end of ToD 34. My Fw190D9 against a Hurricane 2c.

For obvious reasons I was not keen to go head on with him, and chance my two cannon against his four. And every time I zoomed on him and reengaged he was always able to get his nose pointed at me.

I had an altitude advantage and tried everything I could think of to drag him up and stall him out, but he was just not willing to play that game. In the end my only option was to disengage.

Got so frustrated about it I emailed DocDoom asking what advice he had for that situation.

His reply: (hope he won;t mind me quoting this)

Your question shows you have reached a fairly high level of experience in Fw flying as most would assume that the problem was in their flying. It is a common Fw190 problem and it is not you that causes it.

Basically, a high percentage of Hurricane II pilots will force the nose to nose set up onto you. They know they have lots of firepower and this is how a lot of them tend to think it should be used. Zeke pilots would do it too if they were dumb enough to try (and many are ... however the better Zeke pilots try to use the "S" break to get behind you as you overshoot their break. The better Hurricane II pilots would do this too, but there seem to be fewer of those about.

Your options fall into 2 categories.

1: Don't engage them. If all you can get from manoeuvring with them is a HO you wish not to take, fly away. Get some altitude and come back when you can force the diving pass which they must avoid.

2. The sucker play. Drag them into a climbing situation where you have enough E to out climb them, see if they can be baited into chasing you and bleed them dry. The instant they nose down and stop playing the sucker, reverse down and clobber them. If they climb to the point of stalling, you will have an easier time of it. If they won't play the game, go and find someone who will.

You might also experiment with diving performance. As the HO nears, go under their nose, they will red out if they try to make the shot. Careful not to accelerate too quickly at first, let them think they can catch you. You might do a gentle turn (so as to "appear" to be sort of slow, but in reality still not bleeding E) and then hold them at d13 or so as the dive increases your speed. When you get to the point where their controls are locked up in high speed compression to a fair degree (600+ kph) roll hard and turn quickly, then roll level just as quickly and pull up. You will find, provided that they took the bait, that you can force them off to one side at too high a speed to correct quickly, and use the Fw190's fine handling at high speed to get a rear aspect, or top aspect tracking shot.

That's about all there is to offer you, but if you experiment along these lines, you will discover that sometimes you can turn the tables, but the Hurricane II pilot needs to be a real sucker to fall into the trap. In many instances, you just have to be happy with baiting them, discovering they aren't easily fooled, then leaving them to be frustrated when you leave without playing "headon dweeb" which of course, they had hoped like hell you would.

But everything you can do, and might pull off with success, falls into the "suker play" category. 1 on 1, a far better turning plane with superior guns should NEVER die to an inferior turning plane with inferior guns. Unless of course they didn't know you were there, and that still falls into "sucker" territory in my view

Sorry I can't offer you more, but there isn't really a lot you can do about it. I try to get them when they are busy fixating on something other than me. If it's 1 on 1, and they aren't going to be suckered, well, chances are I'll go looking for someone who'll be more willing to play the suckers game. Or another Fw190. Love killing those guys

Doc.

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 02-25-99 06:21 AM ET (US)         

Jekyll pretty much summed up your options bro.....

1 on 1, a better turning aircraft will almost ALLWAYS give you a HO shot. If you cant get behind them, than it's best to disengage before you lose too much E.

The only way to get behind these guys is to zoom high enough, CLOSE enough so that you can use your roll rate to get a top aspect or MAYBE a trailing shot on em. But this can be dangerous depending on the nmy E state. If nmy is consistantly doing flat turns to avoid your guns pass, than E will be susceptable to this high zoom. IF however, nmy is using barrel rolls, he wont be as susceptable.

The best way to avoid this situation is to attack pre-occupied nmy, or to fly with a wingman. With a wingman, you can take turns on the nmy, and you will eventually nail the guy.

If you're alone, just break off.

As for the spiral climb...dont think I would use that in the f4u bro, I would stick to high speed passes and using hammerheads or wingovers for reversals.

Check out Iddons performance to compare climb rates and such at: www.geocities.com./Heartland/6302/Perform/flight_test_department.htm this will give you a pretty good idea about what you would be able to use the spiral climb on.

Hey....Nice cannons!

Idiamn

Kodiak posted 02-25-99 11:50 AM ET (US)            

Don't zoom climb because it gives you opponent exactly what he wants. Remember this. You usually only get ONE true boom & zoom pass at a player that has some experience. After that its an energy wrestling match. Your targets main goal should be to stay fast enough to maneuver and underneath you to force steep energy bleeding maneuvers. Every time you bite he gains some energy parity and some angle. The trick is to pull your nose up, staying fast, into some type of lag pursuit after the boom. Never extend far enough that he can regain his speed and bring his nose all the way around at you. Its not your total energy that matters. It's the relative energy between the planes that counts. Stay higher and faster then him in a lag position and close enough to keep the pressure on. That might be with a yo-yos, chandelles, spirals, etc. If you don't get a good angle off tail or the pass would be too steep make a fake guns pass to make him break. Pull up back into lag then wingover for another fast pass. Repeat as necessary gaining just a bit each time until you have a good angle. If done right in just a few high pressure passes he should be bled dry and holding still for you The first pass you might end up with d15 separation. Second and third passes you might only have to separate to d10, fourth pass it could be as close as d6 and you get to barrel roll onto his six for the kill shot. Its very aggressive and very effective and the hog excels at this type of combat. I use the technique in all the high wingloaders. Of course some of the real pros around here may disagree so your mileage may vary, etc etc.

Practicing this setup H2H with someone is a great exercise. A few of us in JG54 have been doing quite a bit of it lately.

Kodiak III./JG54

funked posted 02-25-99 12:02 PM ET (US)            

Docdoom nailed it. They are expecting the fastball, give them a changeup.

Make them commit to the zoom, then pull out of your descent, let them stall, and come back down.

You can also delay your descent by chopping the throttle and deploying flaps and gear. Sometimes this will delay closure to guns range long enough for them to stall out.

Best case: They stall, you get a planform

shot - BOOYAAAA.

Worst case: They reverse fast, head back down before they stall. Even in this case you still have a few seconds to come back down on them and take a shot from behind before they can make another maneuver.

Duckwing6 posted 02-25-99 02:17 PM ET (US)            

hmm understood... maybe i gotta zoom more steeply thus decreasing horizontal seperation and making hamerhead turns more effective.. should aswell bleed his energy faster to go up steeply after the initial break.

As for the spiral rope.... well i said i'm still an AW3 nerd adn THERE only 3 planes can climb with a Hog ina Spiral climb so it's pretty much THE manouver.... well at least i used it VERY effectively.

Thanks!!

Phil (DW6)

Kodiak posted 02-25-99 03:13 PM ET (US)            

Honestly Duckwing the hammerhead or rope-a-dope might be the most overused maneuver in Warbirds. People fall in love with that toy but there are very few times and places where its the most effective option.

It's too easy to defeat and even a 190A8 needs a lucky snap shot to capitolize. All the opponent has to do is drive to the corner, make you dive too steeply, and lead turn with an energy efficient reversal. Each time you do it he closes the distance and energy gap plus he gains some angles. Can only take one or two turns before he has you.

ICQ me if you want to H2H to see what I mean.

Kodiak III./JG54

hardcase posted 02-25-99 04:04 PM ET (US)            

Boom n Zoom Defense:

First thing is don;t climb to meet him. Trim out level(if you were in a climb out from base), WEP up and even dive a little, whatever it takes to get your speed up to a good manuevering speed. Turn toward him, this takes any lead/lag turn advantage from him and forces him to take you on either at th 6 or 12. Let him begin his boom, don;t do a thing, let his approach get as close as 1000yds or less, then do a lazy gently split S. He will not be able to touch you. He will be going so fast that to nose over and try to get you at the bottom of your split he will red out. If you tries to roll inverted to catch you at the initial stage of the split, he will no be able to pull tight enough to avoid blackout or even come close to your arc. If he did a 12 O'clock attack, simply level out at the bottom of your split(regain a littl alt) and acquire him on his out bound zoom. Setup and do this move again.

If he came in from your 6, complete the loop and acquire him as he zooms out. Dive a little to regain your speed and do it again.

Eventually he will go away or stop a full extend and slowly become slower and lower till the engagement becomes a Turn and Burn.

Hope this helps

hard

vila posted 03-01-99 11:30 AM ET (US)            

Another important point.....after an initial Boom -n- Zoom pass, do not make the mistake up pulling into the vertical right away. INstead, get a little lateral seperation first. This does Two things:

1) It gets you out of a prop hanging, target presenting, "I can zoom better than you" situation.

2) It gives you some room to rengage on your terms.

Remember, when you're playing the "e" game, the point is to try and force the bad guy to react to your moves and work him into a no-options position. After you've seprated some, GENTLY (to avoid bleeding e) pull into the zoom climb. If you've done it right, you'll have re-established most (if not all) your original advantage. Now you can work back over him with impunity and re-attack at will. If he insists on pulling his nose up into you, don't play that game. Simply take it back up WELL out of "pray and spray" range. Keep on eye on him over your shoulder, and re-engage when he points his nose back down (and he HAS to point it back down). This is what we affectionately call the "rope-a-dope". If none of the above works, look for an easier target

=vila=

Warbirds Training Staff

Member of the Flying Pigs Squadron