From: "matt a"

Nov 21 1998

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

Hi,

I read on ch 100 last night a couple of messages where =vila= was talking about performing two immelmans one after the other after merging, I think he was flying a P38, one question, namely how?, does he not expend all E getting as much alt as possible on the first immelman?

Any answers would be appreciated.

Matt.

From: =ram1=

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

This is doable in any plane if you have enough energy. What I do is to do the first Immelman faily quickly (try not to expend too much E), using a steep angle of attack then do the second one a bit more gradually, letting the plane fly you over the top. You are bascially making an S in the sky with the lower half of the S having a smaller radius then the upper half.

Does that make sense?

This is a good move in 1 vs 1 merge and no other planes are above you.

After the second Immelman you will be very low on E and very vulnerable if any other planes around.

=ram1=

From: Webs

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

> Does that make sense?

The maneuver does, but why do this when you can do an Immelmann with aroll? You lose less E in the climb and with 180 degrees of roll you come out at the same heading.

> This is a good move in 1 vs 1 merge and no other planes are above you.

> After the second Immelman you will be very low on E and very vulnerable if any other planes around.

I beg to differ. You'll be low in momentum and speed, but not E - you'll have traded most of your speed in for alt.

Webs, CO 101 "Red" Squadron, IDF

From: front

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

> I beg to differ. You'll be low in momentum and speed, but not E - you'll >have traded most of your speed in for alt.

ram1 said low in momentum. You'll be hanging up there wallowing for over a second which would give anyone a very inviting shot if they can get near you.

It might be a good idea to not only practise this a few times offline but also with someone in H2H.

The advice I have seen given before about doing any vertical move at the merge is that you must know the other guys "E" state. That P-38 is a big plane. If the other guy can just keep his nose on you at all (for as you go up and over into the second immelman you will be very slow) he may get some "lucky pings" on you. We all know what happens to the horizontal stabiliser on the P38 when the 20mm start landing on it. :-)

cheers

front

From: =ram1=

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

Yes, you are correct about the E, I meant to say you would be sitting at the top of the second Immelman with no speed and an easy target for any other planes around.

As to why do this, well more for the element of surprise, how many times have you seen this move in fight? Usually you only see 1 Immelman and that is what you prepare for, if you are not ready and the second one comes, then you are now low to you opponent and perhaps in big trouble.

Its not a very common maneuver.

=ram1=

From: "Ara---"

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

When dueling, I like to add a chandell to to the top of my first big immelman. This chandell does two things.. it gains me a tad more E.. and makes the shot I've given away to a Turn Fighter that much harder to make.

This hopefully sets me up to dive down on them after they've wollowed out trying to make the shot.

Ara--- X/O (and trainer) 401 RCAF Rams

From: William Thompson

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

Well, for one the P-38 is an exceptional climber, which can accomplish an Immelman (albeit maybe not the prettiest Immelman) near 250 mph! So, IMNSHO, it is very possible! (If one does not expend all his E doing a break-neck, 'pull up with all you got' Immelman (i.e.: let the plane complete the Immelman using its corner velocity! (For one, I would go into my first Immelman at very high speed (between 300-350 I.A.S. [mph]) and it should be accomplishable!), so keep trying)!

I also find that "The more I practice, the luckier I get!," so practice off-line, and if you cant get it, try help from trainers at iMOL, or do some web page ACM research into the subject of energy fighting/vertical fighting.

From: "matt a"

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

Thanks for the reply,

I managed to do something that seemed quite similar at 300ias using one click of flaps halfway through the second immelman.

Also, another baffling thing that has happened to me recently was when I made the mistake of diving down onto a green P38, which unknown to me at the time was =garn=, so I made the first pass and while zooming i looked back expecting to see the 38 do a split-s or flat turn, instead, from about 3k, it appeared to change its orientation on the spot, and climbed up to me before taking most of the important bits off my plane, the thing that seemed weird was that he didn't seem to be going fast enough to have the e to reach me or he wouldn't have been able to stay directly beneath me, meaning if he was going fast surely there would have been more horizontal seperation, bearing in mind my P51 was at about 10 or 11k when my zoom maxed out.

Thanks,

Matt.

From: =Gryf= Warbirds trainer

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

It is quite easy to mistake an energy state for another plane especially a P-38. Due to the size of the plane the aspect change when passing close by can be disorienting. A big truck looks slower then it actually is till it is upon you.

He probably had TONS of e, was making a turn that made him look slow relative to you, kicked on WEP and straightened out afte you blew a low of speed trying to follow the turn. It's surprisingly easy (Ask Murf, I was showing him that move the other day) and can be quite beneficial.

Remember that Rolling an AC does very little to slow it down by comparision to a turn. Using the roll rate of a fast rolling AC (P-38l is a champ) can really move you out of harms way without slowing you down too much.

=Gryf=

From: xuchj02

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

> Well, for one the P-38 is an exceptional climber, which can accomplish

> an Immelman (albeit maybe not the prettiest Immelman) near 250 mph!

Which to me brings up another question.. From my own experience I believe that the Spit (general one, say IX) can do an immelmann at 200mph IAS, and that's the general speed under which I don't try and at or above which I go for it.. True it's not gonna be "pretty" either, will require a lot of rudder input but still it's an Immelman.

Now is that possible or am I talking nonsense? I think I even made it at 180 or so, of course on the verge of stall definitely, and then it was a bad choice..

Being at it, do any of you have some suggestions on doing the hammerhead, which to me seems a breeze in P38 or Messer, but I happen to be flying exclusively Spits and there it's so to say "troublesome", coming out with bare one-out-of-four when it's a nice one and I don't end up spinning..

True enough I've read many descriptions of this maneuvre, but anyone care to "re-define" it once more?

Also, I've heard throttling down and back up during this thing being mentioned, does that help?

Not to mention, do any of you use the throttle during dogfight, in what situation and in what ways?

I've read about Jochen Marseille "turnbing throttle down to thigthen his turn, which meant trouble to his opponent", but I do not dare to do anything but full throttle plus WEP when TnBing, afraid to lose the big E..

Now this should give you something to write about!

Czech 6!

Jakub

czech- of 249th Sqn RAF "Gold Coast"

From: Jekyll (RAAF)

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

I've always found it difficult to grab good alt when trying an immelman or hammerhead in a Spit, mainly due to it's tendency to torque roll. A move you could try, however, is this:

Perform a very gentle pullup to commence your immelman (about 2g's or so).

As you pass through the vertical you should still have enough speed to roll your aircraft 180 degrees, so instead of completing the immelman inverted, and then trying to roll upright, do the roll first!

What you'll find is that once upright you can 'float' the aircraft back down to level flight in a 0g condition.... no torque roll and you'll grab amazing height with that kind of immelman.

BTW... you DO fly for purple, don't you? (and don't tell any reds, greens or golds about this) :)

Jekyll

From: FLapz

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

This was my favorite move in AW and I won many fites this way....until the guys got to know it! Works even better here because you can kick the plane over at the top of the second Immelman. but you'd better have PLENTY of spped goin' into the first one.

FLapz

From: -Rush-

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

My favorite was hitting WEP and shooting straight up into a power climb.

Switching to the 6 view and watching as the badguys nose started to lower, then go into a stall. Bout that time I was stalling, but kick full right rudder and have them fall right into my guns. I'd get a bunch of Ghost has a hacked FE or Ghost how did you do that : ) I miss AOL spitdweebs <G>

--

-Rush-