Posted by: Ronin

Message:

OK, after suffering in the doldrums of TNB fighting for almost a year, I decided to graduate to E-fighting, seeing as how I want to rtb after getting that kill. Here's what I've got so far: I've got the plane (F4U-1D), I get the alt (10-15k), I can make the dive (the "Boom"), but now, here's my problem. I hear everyone talking about "extending" after the gun pass, or going into a "Zoom" climb. No one ever defined these things for me. So what are they?

Is extension just running flat after the gun pass?

What is "zoom climbing"? Is it doing a Saturn V rocket impression: going straight up?

If the zoom after the boom is a not flat and not "Saturn V", what kind of middle ground is it. How fast do you climb, keeping in mind that I'm supposed to be keeping my speed up (I think).

Need help for a budding E-fighter. Thanks in advance.

-ronin

Posted by: Magnet

Message: I am a vet but no means an expert. I have, however, transitioned from TND to BnZ. I fly a P51 and learned many painful lessons about this. Since joining a squad (487th Lil Bastards) and doing training, I have improved a great deal.

Here is my advice:

1. Use more than 10K - I try to enter my engagement area at between 14 and 16K, up to 20K if I think enemy are above 12K.

2. Pick your target carefully. Pick someone who is going away from a group, or a single aircraft chasing a friend. Don't pick someone who is traveling with 3 or 4 of his friends.

3. Dive to the fastest speed you can control the plane. In the P51, we commonly go as fast as 450mph.

4. Make your firing pass from below if you can. I especially use this when attacking F4F, F6F, F4U, etc (any plane that I know has lousy rear visability). Then bank away and continue, conserving your speed.

5. I usually climb at about 30 degrees. Too steep and speed comes off too fast. If no enemy is co-alt, I will do a shallower climb to conserve speed.

In my experience in F4U, I had the best results by keeping my speed very high and making long and very shallow turns.

Good Luck.

Magnet

Posted by: -sick- [CO/487th FS]

Message:

everything mag said is right on :) energy fighting requires a lot of practice to go with all that theory, so my additional advice is to join a squad that concentrates on training (i.e. has at least one dedicated training night per week), and to use the services of the warbirds trainers. training is what makes all the difference, and a few hours of training is worth a hundred hours of action in the main arena. or fifty in the historical arena ;)

-sick- [CO/487th FS "Lil Bastards"]

Posted by: Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Message:

...first of all, you have to get your terms right.

If you are a P-51D fighting a Bf 109, you 'extend' after a gun pass.

If you are a F4U-1D fighting an A6M, you 'extend' after a gun pass.

If you are a Fw 190 fighting anything, you 'run away like a wussy Fw 190' after a gun pass.

Go figure. I guess it's that whole lack of skill backed up by words thing. 8)

Okay, all joking aside now...

1. The angle of your 'zoom' has alot to do with your enemies speed/energy. If you make a pass on an aircraft with fair speed and a great climb rate, a steep climb on your part will sometimes allow him to follow you up and get into gun range. However, you can 'zoom' almost straight up if you 'boom' a target flying at low speed and/or low 'energy state'. However, this whole question and answer needs to be qualified - if you are doing things right, the guy you 'boomed' should be pulling the rip cord as you climb away. So take my above comments and apply them to any enemy aircraft in the area. A key super important life saving ability for an energy fighter is to be able to judge the speed and energy state of every enemy aircraft he can see with a relatively quick glance.

2. Look out for other 'energy fighter' type aircraft when you engage multiple enemies. They will be looking for you (see below).

3. Choose your targets wisely when engaging multiple enemies. Say you are near an enemy airfield. You are in your F4U-1D, at 10,000' altitude. There are 2 enemy A6Ms nearby, 1 co alt and another engaged with a friendly aircraft attacking the field. There are 2 enemy Spitfires (probably IXs or XIVs) taking off, along with an enemy Ki-84 IA. There is also an enemy P-51D roughly 2,000' below you, and an enemy Bf 109 about 7,000' above you.

The Bf 109 is climbing away from you. The P-51D is moving from your '2' to your '3' at a high rate of speed. All aircraft taking off are climbing towards you (they probably think you are in fighter bomber mode).

So, who do you hit first?

Shoot me the answer via email, and I'll reply.

4. Read Fletchman's page(s) on energy fighting if you haven't already. Also, read 'Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering' by Robert Shaw a couple of times.

5. Post questions like this to the Warbirds training newsgroup for a response with more data and less 'clutter'.

Good Luck and See You Up There,

Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

p.s. hatch= is a Warbirds trainer and F4U Addict - look him up if you just moved to the F4U.

Posted by: Stiglr Stab JG5

Message:

It's not 'who do you hit', but rather who do you 'deal with' first! You're really not in a position to strike, seeing as how you're badly outnumbered, and have too many planes around to keep good SA for long.

The P-51 is your main problem because he has the smash to nullify the alt difference and make things difficult quick. The 109 is probably problem #2, especially if he stops climbing and comes down for you while you react to the Stang. The co-alt Zekes will quickly become problems if you don't deal with the Pony, and *especially* if you stay co-alt and burn E while you do. The 3 enemy climbing out from the field have 10K to go and are no threat, with the Frank having the quickest *potential* to become a threat; otherwise they're meat....*IF* you can get out of the pickle you're in right now.

My first reaction: E conserving oblique turn and shallow climb to suss out what's up with the Stang, and to create/keep an E advantage over the co-alt Zekes. If the Stang keeps going from 3:00 to 4:00 at that high rate of speed, he may turn into a "no threat" soon. I'd more likely expect him to perform some kind of reversal.

And keep another eye peeled on the high 109. Should he decide to drop down, he's potentially threat #1.

Posted by: =worr=

Message:

: ...first of all, you have to get your terms right.

: If you are a P-51D fighting a Bf 109, you 'extend' after a gun pass.

: If you are a F4U-1D fighting an A6M, you 'extend' after a gun pass.

: If you are a Fw 190 fighting anything, you 'run away like a wussy Fw 190' after a gun pass.

: Go figure. I guess it's that whole lack of skill backed up by words thing. 8)

: Okay, all joking aside now...

Hehe....

That's a classic wulfie. :)

: 1. The angle of your 'zoom' has alot to do with your enemies speed/energy. If you make a pass on an aircraft with fair speed and a great climb rate, a steep climb on your part will sometimes allow him to follow you up and get into gun range. However, you can 'zoom' almost straight up if you 'boom' a target flying at low speed and/or low 'energy state'.

I would add something I even forgot above.

If you run away horizontally you get LOTS more separation than if you do so vertically. Pulling back vertically means to change the degree of separation 90 degrees! Gotta think 3D and in terms of spatial relations.

Its more like that chess set Spock used on Star Trek. ;)

If you go up we will still have the same amount of smash in relation to him, but you are reappropriating it at half the departure angle! This makes a very big difference, especailly in the intial "run away" for guns solution separation.

Worr, out

Posted by: Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Message:

Sorry, I forgot to address 'extending' seriously. 8)

This is a tough call, and learning what to do is going to get you shot down no few # of times.

But the *very basic principle* is this. If you have a guy on your '6', who is chasing you, and you want to engage while he is still in range to catch and engage you (i.e. when you reverse to engage him he is going to get at least one gun pass on you) *because you are so bad ass* you are rolling the dice. You are betting that you are good enough to spoil his gun solution with your initial maneuvers, and then reverse the tables on him...thru forcing him to overshoot, flying your aircraft cleaner/better than him and getting some angles, etc., whatever.

In real life, this doesn't/didn't happen much at all. In real life you die for good, so if a guy is able to maintain a position 2000 yards off your '6', you set him up for your wingman to kill him, or you leave, because that guy back there has a huge position advantage and are you *really* willing to bet that he isn't as good a shot/good a pilot as you think he is? The only situation I can see this happening in (well, almost the only 1) in real life is where a wing pair gets separated and is outnumbered, and being a stud wing man some guy with several enemies on his '6' reverses to help his wing man, who is probably in more trouble.

But I think this was very very very rare. Real life combat pilots probably tend to address this situation/question with a question of their own - "How did you let this happen to you? Multiple enemies on your '6', not enough energy, and the big sin - not close enough to your wing man for purposes of mutual support?".

Anyway, real WW2 combat pilots were taught that lowering flaps in combat was a dangerous thing to do. After all, if you set up your attack correctly there should be no need, right?

In real life, speed and performance are almost all that matters to a combat pilot. Talking about shaving 140' off your turning radius by tickling the 1/4 flap setting is reserved for the 2 fool wanna be's in the K-Mart coffee lounge. In real life, even Bf 109 and A6M pilots preferred to 'boom and zoom' if they had a choice.

So after all that blather - if you want to live, keep extending, set the guy up for a wing man (always helps to have a wing man!) and if he is faster than you, thru a faster aircraft or more energy, you are going to be defensive in about 5 seconds. So go from 'super cool energy fighter mode' to 'defensive If I Return to Base I Swear I'll Never Seduce A Catholic High School Girl Ever Again' mode, because he is going to catch you. 8)

Learning to reverse before 'optimum separation' and win is a tough thing to learn, so don't get discouraged if you get shot down alot learning how to do it.

And if you are trying to extend but you are getting caught anyway, as an energy fighter always think 2 things...

1. How can I transition to offense, get a shot in, etc.?

2. How can I make this guy overshoot so I can kill him for daring to chase me down.?

...aircraft that are good at energy fighting *usually* have decent firepower and *always* have great speed and/or great acceleration and/or a great climb rate. This means that usually if a guy overshoots you, you can be on him with the tables reversed pretty darn quick (unless he has an obscene speed energy advantage).

Okay, see you up there... 8)

Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Posted by: Disco Fever ==df==

Message: : Is extension just running flat after the gun pass?

Yes you would be extending but it doesn't have to be on a flat plane. Extending is putting distance between yourself and the con be it to set up another pass or get out of dodge because of his friends. Extending would have more of a horizontal component than a vertical one though.

: What is "zoom climbing"? Is it doing a Saturn V rocket impression: going straight up?

Well I wouldn't say straight up although some would but yes the zoom is the vertical.

: If the zoom after the boom is a not flat and not "Saturn V", what kind of middle ground is it. How fast do you climb, keeping in mind that I'm supposed to be keeping my speed up (I think).

There is no right answer. It all depends on the situation; the E of your opponent, your E, other cons near by,his orientation to you after you make the pass, etc.etc. Try not to think text book and diagrams. If your turning left on a 2 lane road with on coming traffic, you dont think of some formula in your state's drivers manuel for calculating the speed of the on coming car, your optimum cornering speed, and the loss of E due to more tire surface on the road as you turn, you just "know". I realize that right now you don't which is why you asked but I'm just making the point that in 3 dimensions with many variables in the game, there is no text book answer.

I do have a few tips for you though ( these are assuming your fight will be uninterupted and you have the advantage ).

-Look at the vertical "zoom" as setting yourself up for the next "boom." You are going to react to what the con does. His counter for your first boom dictates your zoom. From a high 6 approach if he pulls up into you, meaning he basically starts to do a loop to get guns on you, don't continue with your pass. There's no reason to let him get guns on your when you have the advantage. Either zoom back up for another pass, do a loop your self to drop right down on his 6 after he gets to the top ( you'll not be able to see him though and he most likely won't do an entire loop ), or put yourself just out of guns range but in position to blow him out of the sky when he gets to the top of his climb and is low on E.

If he banks and starts a flat turn, a wingover will drop you right down on his 6 with enough E to zoom again if needed.

If he rolls under and dives, don't follow him. Get back on top and set yourself up for the next pass.

Try to start your first boom somewhere in the neighborhood of D20. More than that you run the risk of gaining too much speed and losing a wing, or blowing too much E because you where flying "flat" too long to catch him. On the zooms, get seperation but not too much. If your letting him get back to D20 again he'll just be more prepared for your next pass. Keep the pressure on but don't let go of your advantage.

The best piece of advie I could give though is to observe somebody good in the MA. See that they are seeing and how they react. All the text books, discussions, and diagrams in the world don't compare to one time of just seeing it..

-Disco Fever ==df==