Jan Nousiainen posted 06-02-99 10:27 AM            

Life with FW 190 in 2.6 world isn't too rosy. Fights are usually low level turnfights and entering such with Wuerger is like sticking your head to a meat mincer unless you are really fast.

The current lethality of Wuerger is rather low when compared to it's real WW II reputation. But patch is on the works and after its out, Wuerger should be the 'kanonenboot' it was in reality. Practise hard now and pick up the fruits later!

I have recently been quite succesfull in 190A and D, if I'm just lucky enough to find proped situation ie, cons lower and flying relatively straight or their situational awareness is down. With good long tracking shot from dead 6 or snapshot from 12 you can still get kills. After pass, zoom up and climb, wether you hit or miss.

But how do you fight in 190 in 1 vs 1 when the con is really trying to kill you and not just flying straight? If the con is anything more maneuverable than B-25 I usually run for good but I guess thing could be different for I have heard tales of pilots who could fight Spits and still survive and even getting occasional kills too!

When I face and co-alt Spit my imagination dries up after initial head on shoot out. What should I do if running and bailing is out of options? I know that horizontal turning is bad but you really can't outclimb a Spit either.

PS. I got propably my cleanest and sweetest kills yesterday when I was over F22 in 190A-8 with 500 kg (1000lb?) bomb. I was in dive to bomb hangar when Spit (XIV?) materialized on the runway. I skidded my Wuerger little with rudder to direction of Spit and let the bomb loose then went to a steep climb. I inverted the plane and SMACK! The 500 kg bomb hit Spit to left wing! I can tell you that you need to really hit Spit with 4 X 20 mm to make mess that bad.

Another PS. Flying FW offsets those periods when I fly Spit. After couple of kills in 190 and I feel lot less dweeb...

ObrFhr jochen 1./JG27 'Afrika'

Karaya One posted 06-02-99 11:23 AM            

Jan:

Dont forget to use the vertical with the 190 series. Hammerheads and other Doc Doom (tm) patented maneuvers make the 190 turn very quickly in the vertical.

Also, try to maintain your energy and speed. You may not get a great firing solution but if you keep proper SA and seperation you enemy will get sloppy...then reverse and kill.

Flying the 190 is time consuming but rewarding

K1

Val_DoD posted 06-02-99 11:42 AM            

You will need the patch before the 190 comes back into its own. Until then you will need to get within D2 or less and fire a sustained (read LONG) burst from all 4 20mms to see any effect.

To fight the 190 effectively, you need to make use of vertical manuevors. When I fly it I like to keep my attack speed up around 450-500kph, and pull as little Gs as possible (2-3max). I use Immalmens(sp), chandelles, wingovers, and hammerheads to reverse. Since these moves leave you slow at the top you need to keep your SA(situtational awareness) up, and make sure you have enough E(energy=kinetic and potential) to stay out of the enemies guns range.

When you get caught up with a better turning plane use your roll rate and acceleration to stay out of his line of fire. This usually puts you into some form of a scissors. Try to keep off the Gs so that you don't bleed too much E.

If you have enough alt a gentle push forward on the stick until the G meter reads Zero will give you the fastest acceleration. Hold the meter at zero and watch how fast your speed picks up. (This works for all AC)

I hope this has helped a bit

Good Hunting!

val

Bugjam posted 06-02-99 11:43 AM            

K1's advice work fine but...

Especially co-alt spits are real pain in the arse. They are *so* good at E retaining that when a 190 goes vertical too early, a spit can flat turn and still climb to you. And when you're on top of your maneuuver he sprays you out of the sky. The E he loses in turning he makes up with his guns, all he need is to get 200 yards below you.

Lesson: Remember to create enough separation before you go vertical. If the fight starts to look bad you still have a few extra seconds to dive away and save your butt.

Let the 190 stall at top of vertical maneuver, left wing falls then kick rudder and aileron to full left and let your nose go down. Drop one notch of flaps before stall, it gives you a little more control.

Bugjam

VMF-58 Wildcards Rogue Squadron

Daff posted 06-02-99 11:45 AM            

Except for early war, where I usually motor around in a spit or hurri, I preach E-fighting.

Most people can avoid BnZ attack all day long, so you need to sucker the guy into thinking he got a chance .

So...if you boom someone and then zoom for a mile, he's not going to try and follow you up..instead he will grab at a decent speed, trying to get as much E as possible before your next attack.

Instead zoom almost vertical but reverse quicker and attack again. If he evades again, then the trick is to make it look like he might have a shot at you, so he will try to zoom after you. Time it right, and by the time you reverse, he will have stalled and be hanging nice and still in front of you.

The same goes for the co-alt merge. If you can *hide* your E-state,then you can often sucker them up in a rope'a'dope.

The best way to do this, is to lead the merge. Forget about the HO..it's too risky to get either pk'd or your engine knocked out.

Get as much speed as possible, even dive a bit if necessary. At d12-8 (depending on closure), pull up in a gentle zoom up to about 80 degrees. Most likely (especially in the MA), the bogey will start drooling when he sees you presenting a platform shot, but that shot is extremly hard to track and he will bleed a lot of E trying to. Secondly, when people see a 190 (or in my case a P47) actually turning, they'll usually wet themselves with joy and immediatly yank the stick back to follow you.

Difference is that you should only be pulling about 2.5-3 G's, where they will normally pull 4+. Watch them stall below you and flip down to blow them away.

Ok, so occasionally they dont go for the HO and will even zoom, but 95% of the people in the MA, wont start their zoom until they've passed you. This gives you the initiative.

You can then gently pull the nose back onto them and force them to react. Sometimes you can get them to bleed enough E when they try to put their nose on you, that you can safely go vertical again and again gain the advantage.

By leading the merge, you get the initiative. Yes, it's slightly unnerving in the initial phase when you cant see the bogey, so it is a matter of having confidence in your own and his E-state.

You will often gain the E advantage, but you will also gain angles. When you are at vertical, he's probably only at 45 degrees up, making him reacting to your actions, not the other way around.

Occasionally you will see someone, who will lead as well, or zoom just as high (or higher), but then you have the option of just pushing the stick forward and run awa...erhh extend..

I've always been preaching the lead turn on the merge. I've "outturned" both pony's & spits that way in the 47 (granted they werent hot sticks, but if you into those, you're in trouble no matter what you do <G> ), simply by being able to bring guns on them before they could bring guns on me.

I also always try to sucker the bad guy into a stall/near stall situation, as with the new gunnery, tracking shots on an aware opponent is very hard.

hope it makes sense

Daff

avin posted 06-02-99 01:24 PM            

Spot on, Daff.

My easiest kills are the guys who're trying *desperately* to kill me, but don't have the position they need to do it with. It makes them so predictable .

avin

funked posted 06-02-99 01:39 PM            

My technique. It didn't work very well.

1. Bounce Spitfire

2. Shoot Living Crap Out Of It

3. Watch It Continue Unharmed

4. Shoot It Again

5. Repeat 2-4 Until Out Of Ammo Or UFO Energy Device Puts Him On Your Six.

6. Get Pi__ed

7. Stop Flying 190 Until 2.6 Deporked

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 06-02-99 03:52 PM         

Funked....hahahahaha stop man yer killing me

The 190...sigh....what can you say. I just LOVE that bird. She's such a brute. Everyone either LOVES her or HATES her hahahaha!!! And except for the unrealistic 6 view...wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

My philosophy, and I'm curious as to everyone else's input, is that when I fly her I ATTACK aircraft rather than FIGHT. When I can no longer ATTACK and have to fight, I break off. 109, I fight, 190, I attack.

Great white sharks hide in the depths looking for seals, than, upon spying an unwary victim, they begin to rapidly accelerate from below and hit the seal hard and try to inflict a violently lethal bite. Usually one bite is all it takes. Great white sharks dont chase their prey, they pounce on it, for if they chase, more often than not, the nimble little seal will escape.

I feel the same way when flying the wurger. I generally dont FIGHT, but attack by entering with a butload of E that I use until either the target is destroyed OR, I can no longer ATTACK because my E is too low. But I'm NOT gonna try to use any high speed fancy ACM to fight someone, I just cant keep the E up, (..read, I'm not that damn good hahahaha) I'm gonna use E and ATTACK their sorry arses.

The biggest mistake I see people make (myself included) is reversing way too damn soon. Entering the fight without enough E, is the second.

The distance that one can safely reverse varies from individual to individual, but I try to give myself a good cushion in case I'm having a bad day. (Say D-20 or so) When I can no longer ATTACK at 300 + miles an hour, than its time to rethink the situation and either break to grab MORE E, or just plain break off and try my luck elsewhere.

When CO E with a good fighter, if you dont have either ALT, a WINGMAN , or LUCK , you might as well start looking for that chute handle. In the HA especially, them boys have GREAT throt control so getting them to make a major overshoot is a REAL challenge....(except for the 303 RAF guys who fall for it everytime ) co e and low, you can probably lose em once by using a scissors/ barrel roll/ your favorite evasion move, but you will burn E and they'll eventually nail ya.

You cant out turn em, you cant often outclimb em, and you cant often out run em....soooo.

To sum it all up (ya I know, FINALLY)

ATTACK!! When you cant ATTACK and have to fight, leave and find another schmuck. There's plenty out there.

How many of you 190 drivers would agree with that general thought???

C U above,

Idi

Jan Nousiainen posted 06-02-99 04:46 PM            

Ok, I generally manage to keep my E up. The problems seems to be that I can make one clean zoom attack and if the con refuses to die, I practically disengage to gain horizontal and verical separation and then I try again. This takes time and if con follows me then I pretty much don't know what to do except accept a headon joyst. How do I can stay 'close' to the con and re-engage him without time consuming extension in case I have E advantage?

How about this situation. I dive to cons six and shoot him with everything I have (2 X 13mm and 4 X 20mm) but despite many hits cons refuses to blow up (Doh... forgot that I was flying 2.6) and I have 200+ km closure and I'm in range of D2. What should I do? Dive below him (redout), pull up (blackout) or continue shooting and hope that he will blow up? If I go up then con might follow me and nail me when I extend. Maybe this pull up could include some rolling maneuver, they don't bleed much enegry?

Or if con sees me in last moment and starts hard turn in horizontal which I might follow and even get enough lead for a snapshot in cost of E? I guess the snapshot option is pretty useless now, so is it better to just go vertical to re-engage after a climb?

And about those chandelles, hammerheads and wingovers, they cannot be effectively done in easy mode, right? Every time I try hammerhead, my Wuerger refueses to drop it's nose fast enough and it hovers in 0 G state for some time before the nose slowly starts its descent getting pinged by the con below. I might try realistic mode since E fighting generally does not call for 'on the edge' turns that a the hardest part for me. How about the trimming, how much does it hamper shooting in dive?

How about zoom performance of Wuerger? If Wuerger and Spit IX meet in head on merge with identical speeds, Wuerger should zoom higher due it's bigger weight and hence kinetic energy? And how does Wuerger accelerate, it has powerful engine but it weights alot. So if I'm front of Spit IX with same speed, can I excpect that I can out accelerate him if I do some rolling evasives in same time?

>> My philosophy, and I'm curious as to everyone else's input, is that when I fly her I ATTACK aircraft rather than FIGHT. When I can no longer ATTACK and have to fight, I break off. 109, I fight, 190, I attack. <<

When I look closer my flying this is exactly what I do. I attack the con, if he survives then I extend long enough so I can attack again. There is no continuous fight but series of attacks until somethin happens (another con, out of ammo, get frustrated and go home).

>> Get as much speed as possible, even dive a bit if necessary. At d12-8 (depending on closure), pull up in a gentle zoom up to about 80 degrees. <<

Hmm, I usually fly steadily to about D1 hoping for a lucky headon shot and when it fails to materialize, I pull up and if the con does the same, BANG! Next time I will lead on vertical earlier and see what happens.

Thanks guys, I'm sure happy to see that there is still folks who help the poor little newbies! And this is rather welcome change for constant whining hear lately.

ObrFhr jochen 1./JG27 'Afrika'

DGSBDY

Member posted 06-02-99 05:06 PM            

I just cant help myself, I have to get in on this, even though flying the FW in 2.6 has become an exercise in futility for me.

Since I have never been accused of having any sense I keep my tactics simple so I can remember them at a second's notice. When I forget I get killed.

BIG rule #1: fly with another FW, especially someone who can shoot better than you. Stick close, mutually support, and drag STRAIGHT for the other guy and be amazed at your new success.

#2 gain alt out of the combat area, 300km/hr

or 400km/hr climb in area where you might get bounced. 50-75% fuel depending on how long you expect to live.

#3 never enter co alt fight at less than 500km/hr, never pull more than 3G's.

#4 youre being tail chased, a) if he's faster, half throttle, pull back sharply, right barrel roll with plenty rudder and slam the throttle forward as you see him over shoot. He will struggle to keep his nose on you and will pass at point blank range, and he will lose sight. Be ready to shoot, or drop flaps to get your nose where he is going. It is unreal how many spits I;ve killed this way, of course it is unreal how many times theyve rammed me too.

when youre out of speed, have her at full power and attempt to hang there, the horn should be screamin in your ear, and watch the other guy. let him fall and wait until he pitches back up, be on your back already to start down. use full flaps to get the nose down into him first as your turn radius should be smaller, fire all guns across his bow lol.

If its time to bugout, dive straight down if its a compressable airplane (109, yak, 38, zeke, Ki84,) once his speed builds roll opposite and escape opposite direction. all pullouts are to be as smooth as possible. If its a fast mover( FW, 51, 47,) put the nose down but throttle back, flaps out, and let him pass you on his way down, or dive just to fightin speed (450) and pitch back up into him (start a scissors).

Scissors are great in the FW! If they are horizontal go up at the "end" of your lunge and hang there, just do it gently to use every ounce of "E". the other guy should pass below your tail, full flaps and hard left rudder should spin you left and downwards into him. You will usually end up slow and below his 6, but he wont be thinkin about anything offensive at that point.

vertical scissors are just awesome against most other planes except another 190 (unless its a dora) you can keep out of phase for quite a while but I can rarely get an overshoot, even with mustangs.

All these are for use with the A4 or A8, I cant do well at all in the dora, Go offline and practice SLOW flyin in the FW. Learn to fly it to 100% of its ability at low speed and you can kill even spit drivers if they only fly at 80% of the planes capability.

however with the "new guns" you cannot kill well at even close range as you need too much "time on target" to get a killing burst. It is evident that you can get more kills easier flyin a 109k than you can flyin a 190 with 4 20mm, I got 5 in a mission with the 109k btu have yet to even run up a 5 kill streak with the FW's. Its getting very tiresome.

funked posted 06-02-99 05:18 PM            

"Go offline and practice SLOW flyin in the FW. Learn to fly it to 100% of its ability at low speed and you can kill even spit drivers if they only fly at 80% of the planes capability."

Really good point.

Daff posted 06-02-99 07:48 PM            

Yes, turn easy mode off now!..it's eveil and wont help you with ACM, only hinder you.

Accept that you have to spend a couple of weeks spinning & stalling...it's is worth it.

For learning all those fancy vertical reversals, use smoke offline (.smoke). First pratice make them worth an airshow and then to do them quick'n'dirty (Many people might laugh about aerobatics and say they have no use in ACM, but it's the best way to learn effects & further effects of the control inputs)

Dont use so much horisontal seperation, unless you want to be extremly carefull.. Go vert..use that E!. If you are d20 out in front of him, going away (albeit a bit higher) you're nowhere near the threat you are d20 above him!

Think about what rattles you when you get attacked. A bogey extending horisontal gives me time to think and prepare for his next attack...with one above me, I have to keep an eye on him (ie looking up) while flying.

You dont actually have to point your guns at him, to push him to make a mistake..often being in a situation where you can, will force the bogey to make a mistake.

Still...knowing when to disengage is a very usefull skill, but you usually have to be shot down a lot to learn when is the right time

Daff

Magnus posted 06-02-99 08:52 PM            

About once a quarter I see someone who slips over to "The Dark Side" and wants to truly learn how to fly a FW. Jan.....WELCOME!

IMHO, it is the most wicked beast to master, but when you do it is very rewarding. I stick by my FW....good cannons or bad cannons. Here are a few tips to get you on your way:

-Be patient...it takes time to learn how to become a FW driver.

-STAY FAST! Keep your SA way up and know when to bug out. (And leave yourself enough speed or altitude to do so.)

-ROLL! Learning a rolling scissors is a must! In version 2.6 they gave the FW it's ability to perform a true rolling scissors back again but, as mentioned above, took away the cannon lethality.

-RUDDERS- They are your greatest ally and your worst nightmare. Learn to use them effectively. To much rudder, even at high speeds, will hurt you and cause a vicious low wing stall. But they can help your roll rate and gun accuracy immensely.

THE BOUNCE- too many FW drivers bounce from the high 6 position. During your bounce, start your dive with the nose of your AC pointed about 7-900 yds behind your target and dive to that position. Then pull up into your target's cold 6 position, trim out and climb up into your target. This does several things: 1)Obviously it hides you better in his cold 6 position, 2) it slows your speed a bit. This allows for more time in a tracking shot and, after you have trimmed out, it allows better control surface usage of your AC to avoid those collisions. Remember, the instict of most pilots (who are right handed) who get unexpected hits is to pull up and to the right. Take your AC up and to the left...just watch for the overshoot snapshot opportunity your opponent might have. ALSO, fire your CANNONS ONLY until 50% of your cannon ammo is depleted, then fire all your guns. There are reasons for this, but I dont feel like typing it.

-DGSBDY gave some good tips. These are advanced and need practice. Practice in the A4. It is the most forgiving to fly (Take off easy mode.). The dora is best at real high altitude 6km+ and requires a different style of flying. IMHO the A8 is the best plane to settle into and truly master. Fly in teams if at all possible, that is how the fighter was designed to work.

Finally, flying a FW is alot like playing chess, you must anticipate the moves of your opponent and be thinking several moves in advance. Remember, everyone is going to try to turn you, be smart and patient. Use your verticle and roll to turn.

Welcome to the world of the BUTCHERBIRD!

Magnus 2/JG14

CORRECTION:

pilots pull up and to the left in an emergency (hits), take yours up and to the right.

sorry

Magnus

DocDoom posted 06-02-99 09:51 PM            

"The Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch"

By Geof Rey Evans

Published by Burbanks Books

ISBN 095851948X

It's all in there

Doc.

nopoop posted 06-02-99 10:48 PM            

I for one have found the 190 a real bear to fly. You butcherbird pilots have given me a new way to look at it. Thanks for the lessons as I will no doubt be giving them a try.

Been up against you 190 vets more than once and you always seem to dance "just" out of reach. And I used to over commit and become "meat"

Now I don't try unless the 190 has made a dumb mistake. And the good ones don't.

You all have a lot in common with the good pony pilots. Dancing around "just" out of reach.

And the occasional jug pilot. Only because the are so few jug pilots. Salute'

nopoop