| Fighting Styles Part I |
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| Last update - 10 September 1998 |
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Posted by: hobo Message: Ok, so some guys prefer to T&B, while others like to B&Z, but there seems to be an elite group of flyers that do what is called "Energy fighting" or "E fighting". Sorry if this insults the T&B and B&Z crowds but it seems to me that the best flyers I have met always say they are E Fighters. So the question is...How do you E fight? Where can a person go to get some very specific information on how to E fight? I know this sounds dweebish but I'm getting real tired of my barely better than 1 to 1 K/D ratio and I'd like nothing better than to learn how to E fight. Other than a very short try using MS Flight Simulator, WB is the only flight sim I've ever flown. I work in the aircraft industry, have flown R/C planes for many years (even done R/C combat) but none of this has prepared me for WB and the realistic thrust to weight ratios of WWII aircraft. I've seen the good info on Fletch's page, read just about everything I can on the various WB web pages, but other than that on Fletch's page I can't find any detailed info on how to E fight. How do you judge the other guys E state accurately? How do you conserve E yet still be able to do quick reversals? My questions go on and on, so any help on where to go, wouldbe very much appreciated. Thanks! Hobo |
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Posted by: worr Message: That exactly the subject of our next lecture, when Drex and I get around to it. It will be January at this point. Be we want to talk about making the transition from boom and zoom to turn and burn. Sorry I can't say more, but I'll be taking notes here. Worr, out
Posted by: DocDoom Message: : How do you judge the other guys E state accurately? How do you conserve E yet still be able to do quick reversals? My questions go on and on, so any help on where to go,would be very much appreciated. : Thanks! : Hobo The most important thing you need to learn, is how to judge the other guys E state. This allows you to use their E state against them, to be in position where you can take advantage of it. In most cases, this will mean being E superior, which is why BnZ is often stated as E fighting, since BnZ is a constant state of E superiority, either altitude, or speed, or both. This is pure Fw190 territory, or P-47, and the P-51 is in this bunch too. But E fighting is much more than sheer superiority of E. Sometimes, in order to gain angles on their rear hemisphere, you will surrender the E advantage, and this is where judgement is critical. this also where the other planes come in, the ones that have BnZ ability AND the ability to turn better than the 2 mentioned above. The F4U can be a phenomenal E fighter, because it dives well, the BnZ thing, but has a good roll rate and can reverse/turn far better than an Fw190/P-47 or even a P-51. The F6F is also extremely dangerous in this style, as it also dives well and can hold it's rather high diving speed through a number of subsequent "engagement" manoeuvres which will help it's pilot to gain angles quickly on sloppier turning aircraft which might rely on speed and E conservation to survive. Now, the million dollar question. How do you judge an enemies E state ? This is the part that really sets the aces up, because no matter how good you are at the actual flying the plane around bit, your ability to set up the initial moves/positions in the engagement is the E fighters ace in the hole. You need to first of all, understand your opponents aircraft and how it tends to make it's pilots want to fly. You need to know what it can be made to do. This helps you to assess it's pilots options (as an opponent) and to anticipate what he may do next, giving you the option to negate any advantage that may offer them. Actually judging their E state is a combination of things, how quickly their closure is (how fast the range is falling)...are they higher or lower, are they carrying smash into a zoom ? I always like to assume they have the maximum E available for their nose attitude/position if I am unsure, if they have less I am better off and if I was right I am still in an ok position. For example, when engaging a P-38 I will want a surfiet of smash to help defeat the speed with which they can reverse if they know their beans as a P-38 jock. This allows me some pull-up excess to help evade if they can pull the alien spacecraft move on me ;] I never ever engage a P-38 without an altitude advantage and lots of speed. I could go on here forever, as "E" fighting is a slow accumulation of experience of where other aircraft excell in an engagement, which leads directly to what the enemy pilot is *most* likely to do in a given situation, which then leads to what options YOU have to gain the angles. It's mostly engagement experience, aircraft performance knowledge, use of available indicators (relative altitudes, closure, relative nose positions, what they are doing RIGHT NOW) mixed into the given situation (such as are they already engaged, and if so, what stage is that engagement in ?) into which you sprinkle some educated guesswork, all of which is supposed to lead you to what you need to do to be in a position to defeat their available options, or better still THE available option they just elected to take. I say *supposed* to...because we all make mistakes. The successful E fighter, however, is the one who makes the fewer gross errors of judgement. Doc
Posted by: Fop1 (3/JG27) Message: Doom, with all due respect, you forgot one little sentence at the end of your wonderful essay: "And you've gotta factor all of this in, every few seconds, because the situation can change dramatically and quickly." I will bow my head and slink away now, my master..... Fop1
Posted by: mobius (3/ZG1) Message: You want knowledge, here it is :) Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw Hardcover, 428 pages Published by United States Naval Inst. Publication date: September 1, 1988 Dimensions (in inches): 10.29 x 7.26 x 1.31 ISBN: 0870210599 Mobius
Posted by: Fop1 (3/JG27) Message: :How do you E fight? Where can a person go to get some very specific information on how to E fight? Well, hobo, there is no easy or short answer to your question, but I will say this: for the most part, B&Z *IS* energy fighting. Since a plane that excels in B&Z usually can't turn nearly as well as a T&B plane, the B&Zer uses high speed gun passes from an altitude advantage, coupled with good high-speed handling (roll rate) to defeat slower, tighter turning aircraft. This is the essence of energy fighting: using a surplus of energy against a more energy-deficient foe. The speed and altitude advantages *are* the "Energy" I speak of. Not to say that a T&B plane can't energy fight. The sage T&Ber will use a better energy state to beat another agile T&B plane, too. In this case, it's more a matter of gaining anenergy advantage (through yo-yos, well-timed reversals, scissors and loops) and then converting it to a better turn rate for a short, decisive time. This results in a good shotagainst a plane that can't turn as well *at that time* due to his relative energy deficiency. This is oversimplifying, but might give you some idea of this vast subject. Simply put, you will be learning to E fight your entire WarBirds career! Flet's pages have a great introduction to E fighting. Look for Fletchman's posts here, and take the link from them to his pages. Sickboy's "Hotel Oscar" page (http://xevious.stanford.edu/ho/) has good energy tactics info, especially for the P-51. Dr. Doom is the reigning FW190 expert. And there are others. Good hunting! Fop1 (3/JG27)
Posted by: hobo Message: : Unless Im mistaken.. I believe that zooming and booming is in fact "Energy Fighting". : Yeager out! It's my understanding (and I might be wrong) that there is a distinct difference between B&Z fighting and E fighting. Would like to know more but not sure where to go. hobo
Posted by: worr Message: : It's my understanding (and I might be wrong) that there is a distinct difference between B&Z fighting and E fighting. Would like to know more but not sure where to go. : hobo Energy fighting is bigger than boom and zoom, and turn and burn. Call it energy consciousness in the same vein as situational awareness. SA is important no matter yourflying style; Energy fighting is the same. Yes, energy fighting is the part of the game in boom and zoom, and the small part in turn and burn, but neither is mutualy exclusive. There may be bannans and oranges, but both of them are fruit. Worr, out
Posted by: A-wing, Jg51 Message: : It's my understanding (and I might be wrong) that there is a distinct difference between B&Z fighting and E fighting. Would like to know more but not sure where to go. : hobo I agree. To me THE definition of a B&Z is a high speed pass of a Fw190 from the same alitude with no attempt by him to turn back onto you untill he has seperated out to range d15 or d20. E-fighting involves diving down, climbing back up above him with all that extra speed and diving back down. If the other guy turns and you can't turn with him due to exessive speed you have compared to him, a High Yo-Yo is in order, to me the most important E-fighting manuever. Or if he tries to climb and you are faster, all he will do is hang in your gunsights as a perfect static target with a wide top down profile to hit. In short: B&Z is high speed gun passes. E-fighting uses your speed and/or altitude advantage to get on his six because you can climb and he can't without stalling. Where did I learn the manuevers like High Yo-yos and Outside turns? Aw..Umm...West End Games role-playing source book for StarWars called "Rebel Source Book". They are just the same manuevers in most flight sim manuels. But you don't own any flight sims you say. OK Your mostly behind you target but... High yo-yo: If your faster and he turns, you climb up to 45 degrees and roll over till he is outside you top canopy view, then pull back down onto him. You can't turn sharper at higher speeds but you can convert you speed into altitude and back into speed again to chase him. Low yo-yo: if you are somewhat slower and he turns, dive a bit under him as you turn to pull up into his six oclock position closer than you started. Cut the corner by diving across the bottom of the turn's circle. Don't dive to the deck, just 5 or 10 degrees below him. Converts altitude to speed to close in. Outside loop: If he is at your screens left side and turns through your gunsight at really close range, you climb while rolling AWAY from him as if your Hi yo-yoing someone to the left. But don't stop the climbing roll. Keep going and dive/roll back down to chase him. Converts speed to altitude and prevents you from flying out in front of a close and slow bandit. You will get a shot at his topside (a moving target) but at least you get a shot of some kind. If you had just tried to turn with him you would have turned wide and he can turn back into you to shoot at your topside. Awing, Jg 51
Posted by: DocDoom Message: : : Unless Im mistaken.. I believe that zooming and booming is in fact "Energy Fighting". : : Yeager out! : It's my understanding (and I might be wrong) that there is a distinct difference between B&Z fighting and E fighting. Would like to know more but not sure where to go. : hobo Ok...we could argue this forever, but it's easy to think of BnZ as a strict discipline of being E superior to your opponent at all times, and using this superior state to either king hit them (Fw190/P-47) or take a few bites over anumber of passes (a number being 2 or more) without exposing yourself or your E state. E fighting however, involves working a little closer in than this on a lot of occassions, and while it can *include* BnZ it is not anywhere near so strict in its execution unless the pilot *elects* it to be so. In E fighting, you can also elect to surrender E to some extent, as long as you do so in a manner that gives you the angles to hurt your opponent. In this regard, it is nowhere near as strict as BnZ. But you do not want to consider a strictly BnZ ship as an E fighter, or more correctly, an ANGLES fighter, since they perform badly when taken out of the strictly BnZ regime. Some Fw190 pilots (such as Drex, myself, I'm sure there are others ;) will give up a purely superior position for the shot window, but we have to be certain to get the kill in a "king hit" guns solution, because we would be wide open if using it as an angles fighter and we missed our target ;] So I always advise against it, even though I don't follow my own advice. BnZ is incorporated into the E fighting folder because by definition, BnZ involves always being E superior, and having E superiority and employing it to gain angles is the E fighters modus operandi. But E fighting is a much larger group of tactical moves and counter moves than just "BnZ". A plane that can E fight, can also BnZ. A plane that can BnZ, cannot always E fight. Doc.
Posted by: Sickboy (-sick-/skby) Message: :It's my understanding (and I might be wrong) that there is a distinct difference between B&Z fighting and E fighting. Would like to know more but not sure where to go. b&z is NOT e fighting. heheh. not at all. and it IS true that e fighting is the best tactic of all... and that's because it is all tactics at once. ok, that sounds a little too taoist, so let me try to be more specific. e fighting is the art of managing your energy state (alt + speed) vs your opponent's energy state. by maintaining a superior energy state, you can deny a guns solution, and then convert your energy into superior angles to grab a guns solution for yourself. its complicated, its difficult, and it involves already having a strong knowledge of angles fighting and of how to BnZ (which is all about e retention instead of e management). first off, you need to consult the master: Robert Shaw, in his book Fighter Tactics. buy it, read it, love it. it IS the bible. next off, i heartily recommend picking up DocDoom's book on flying the FW (drop him mail, and hope he has copies left). "but i dont fly the FW!" you say... well, neither do i. nevertheless. next off, trundle off to Fletch's site and read Flying the F4U. it is the best single piece on the web. there is some information on my site as well, but its fairly P-51 specific. now for some general information, heheheh. energy fighting involves creating a situation where your total energy state exceeds that of your opponent, and then converting that advantage into angles (ie a snap or tracking shot). breaking that down, that means there are three distinct steps: 1) gaining an E advantage 2) converting your advantage to angles 3) taking your shot and recovering from it in a typical boom and zoom attack, step one is accomplished by starting the fight higher and faster than your opponent. step two is accomplished by diving steeply on your enemy. step three is accomplished by shooting wildly, then pulling up and climbing away. this is fine. but there are other ways. gaining an energy advantage means knowing how to exploit your aircraft's strengths and your opponent's weaknesses. do you climb better? try a hammerhead or a chandelle climb (109 tricks). do you retain E better? try corner velocity high speed maneuvers at low G (p51 trick). do you turn better? sucker him into a few turns, but be gentle on the stick... soon your relaxed turning against your opponent's heavy turning will leave you with an E advantage (spit trick). converting your advantage is just as difficult. you have to know where your plane excels. a 109 can hammerhead or snap roll out of a chandelle on to a stalled enemy. a spit can go vertical on a an opponent who has gone below vertical maneuvering speed. a P51 can extend and wingover or pitchback. taking the shot may depend on the plane too. a 109 wants to get *real* close and blast away. a P51 will need a solid tracking shot. an FW just wants a 1/2 second snapshot. a P39 (no kidding!) wants a low deflection long range shot. recovery is the process of going back to step one... but can be very different. do you still have an e advantage after taking your shot? you should... you may be able to just continue going vertical on a desperate target. enemy too smart? you may have to start over building an advantage. ask the trainers for help. spit 5 vs 109F duels are excellent for energy training. and dont forget that the energy fight is available to *any* aircraft, not just late war speedsters. in fact, e fighting in an FM2 is a great way to rip a horde of zekes to pieces, heheheh. and a slower plane can out e fight a faster plane... thats how a spit 5 can kill a 190a4 (a common 1942 matchup). well, that went on longer than i meant it too... heheheh... -sick- |