Posted by: hobo

Message: Ok, so some guys prefer to T&B, while others like to B&Z, but there seems to be an elite group of flyers that do what is called "Energy fighting" or "E fighting". Sorry if this insults the T&B and B&Z crowds but it seems to me that the best flyers I have met always say they are E Fighters.

So the question is...How do you E fight? Where can a person go to get some very specific information on how to E fight? I know this sounds dweebish but I'm getting real tired of my barely better than 1 to 1 K/D ratio and I'd like nothing better than to learn how to E fight.

Other than a very short try using MS Flight Simulator, WB is the only flight sim I've ever flown. I work in the aircraft industry, have flown R/C planes for many years (even done R/C combat) but none of this has prepared me for WB and the realistic thrust to weight ratios of WWII aircraft.

I've seen the good info on Fletch's page, read just about everything I can on the various WB web pages, but other than that on Fletch's page I can't find any detailed info on how to E fight.

How do you judge the other guys E state accurately? How do you conserve E yet still be able to do quick reversals? My questions go on and on, so any help on where to go, wouldbe very much appreciated.

Thanks!

Hobo

Posted by: -eagl-

Date: December 11, 1997 at 01:16:24

Message: :

: So the question is...How do you E fight? Where can a person go to get some very specific information on how to E fight? I know this sounds dweebish but I'm getting real tired of my barely better than 1 to 1 K/D ratio and I'd like nothing better than to learn how to E fight.

There is one concept that is critical to "E fighting". There is a direct tradeoff between energy and nose position. If you don't need to move your nose, DON'T! Level out and climb. Any time you need to turn, remember you will be bleeding energy when you trade your energy for nose position.

Another good tip is anytime you find yourself flying faster than about 220 to 250 kts, pull the nose up and begin a shallow climb. Speed in excess of 250 kts is mostly wasted in WB unless you really need that speed. Otherwise, just keep climbing :)

: How do you judge the other guys E state accurately? How do you conserve E yet still be able to do quick reversals? My questions go on and on, so any help on where to go, would be very much appreciated.

Judging the other guy's E state is a matter of experience. I know that if I see an FW slightly below me at d40, if I simply climb towards him (assuming I'm in most other fighters) I'll arrive over him with more energy because the FW doesn't climb too well. I'll caveat that assumption however, if I notice that he is getting closer really quickly, in which case I know that he is going very fast and will have enough energy to take a low-to-high merge and will get at least 2 shots on me (first the HO, then the one as he loops back down on top of me) unless I do something to bleed down his energy first.

Practice, practice, practice is the way to get better. In fights, consider where you are in relation to other planes, and note your own energy state. Then when you see someone from the opposite situation (swapping positions), you may have an idea of how his energy is based on how yours was in the same situation. Learn to see how if you are d10 directly above a P-38, all he needs is about 200 kts to be able to pull his nose straight up and shoot you. Consequently, to beat a p-38 d10 directly below you, keep threatening him so he is forced to turn rather than get his speed up, so he won't have the E to pull up and shoot you. If he levels out to gain enough speed, thats the time to roll in and kill him. If he keeps turning while you wait above him, he'll never get enough speed to pull up so you can wait for a good opportunity to roll in on his 6 with him still very slow.

VERY IMPORTANT: To get REALLY GOOD IMHO, you need to fly ALL the planes at least occasionally in order to understand their basic capabilities. The people who got killed by the freshly "altered" P-39 in 2.0 know what I'm talking about :) Those of us who flew the new p-39 model realized that while it still looked the same and had the same reputation, it flew much better. For at least a month, the P-39 was racking up kills left and right because lots of people never flew it, so they were suprised by it's new abilities.

Hope this helps... Just remember that you trade energy for nose position and the bandit needs to do the same thing.

-eagl-

Posted by: Hatch

Message: There are 2 different styles of fighting. B&Z falls under the E fighting catagory more often because of the way the Energy is used, ie diving in and zooming up, or away. But IMHO, All fighting is energy management. In stallfighting a faster heavier plane, it is critical to keep enough E, even if it is MUCH less than you would normally have diving or zooming, to maneuver out of a B&Z'rs flight path, or to be able to perform vertical stallover, barrel roll, etc., maneuvers in order to turn inside a more maneuverable opponent. I think the "BEST" pilots in the game have explored both ends of the spectrum, and can manage their energy in both hi and low E states, enabling them to switch from one E state to the other effortlessly. Hehehe, Im sure if you fly a Corsair, KI, or 38, you know what I mean..:)

Hatch

WarBirds Training Academy

Posted by: hoof

Message:

: How do you judge the other guys E state accurately? How do you conserve E yet still be able to do quick reversals? My questions go on and on, so any help on where to go, would be very much appreciated.

Well, judging E states is an art, aquired through many bad guesses (and subsequent deaths :) IMO, if you want to learn the art of E fighting, take a good E fighter, SpitIX or 109F are good choices. In fact fly the 109F exclusively, it can't TnB with the TnB crowd, and makes a poor BnZ plane due to bad high speed handling and low firepower. However, it can outclimb most planes in the game (watch out for Ki84s tho), and is an awesome E fighter. The SpitIX is a good plane to fly if you don't want a cold-turkey introduction to E fighting, as it turns fairly well (but you will lose most pure TnB fights with 38s, spitV's, and Ki84s). However, flying a plane that can only fly very effectively with E fighting and can't TnB or BnZ well is the best way to learn E fighting IMO (since eventually you'll figure out tactics that let you live and kill in the 109F, and then you'll suddenly realize your Energy Fighting :)

E fighting is the art of knowing your plane and your opponent's plane, and then using that knowledge to fight the pilot. This is why good E fighters can kill effectively in almost any plane even when plane performance differences are against him. E fighting is the art of fighting the other guy by tempting him to lose E and therefore give you an E advantage, and once gained, keeping that E advantage and converting it to a kill.

I have a web site where you can learn about the performance characteristics of all the planes. Knowing which planes turn well vs your ride and which don't will help you decide when to convert your E to angles and switch to TnB (with hopefully a positional advantage). Knowing which planes roll well helps determine which are going to be a pain to shoot down if they aren't distracted and are watching you.

Knowing which planes have good high-velocity guns with lots of ammo helps you determine how far above that plane you have to be to avoid getting shot during vertical sucker manoevers.

Knowing which planes zoom best helps you determine whether to risk a zoom sucker manoever or not. Knowing which planes climb better/worse than you can help determine who will get an E advantage over the other over time in a non-turning climbing fight. Etc, etc, etc.

Once you know the planes backwards and forwards (to start with compare your ride to one or two other planes and work on how to beat them) you can now attempt to exploit the weaknesses of that type of plane and you know what your strengths are. This tells you what you can do and can't do vs that plane in various situations. And after flying against that plane, you learn what the average pilot does in it vs your manoevers, and can start using

this to your advantage. Classic example (from the TnB world, but TnB is a subset of E fighting so it's ok :) is the HO. For some insane reason I have yet to figure out, 90% of the people you meet in WB will HO you and try to shoot you down in that HO. This is an easy way to gain a quick advantage on them. Barrel roll, reversing roll directions frequently until range 5-8.

Then aggressively lead turn horizontally, pulling high G's. They will ususally attempt to follow you and shoot you and will fail 99% of the time, and fly in front of your now reversed plane. Reverse turn direction and lay it into him :) This can be done in the vertical as well.

Be forwarned that a major part of E fighting is sucker tactics like the HO example above is the fact that you are tempting them with a low-probability shot. Occasionally they will get lucky (or occasionally they are incredible marksmen) and will land some hits that will stop you cold (like a stab or pilot kill or a wing). P38's are notorious for this, and FWs are too (large ammo load and heavy ping damage). Thus expect to die every so often when using sucker tactics. This is the price you pay for rendering the opponent helpless, for if they miss (and if you do it right they will miss 95-99% of the time), *you* now have an awesome shot opportunity (although these are almost always diving deflection shots, so work on your diving gunnery :) This is the beauty of sucker manoevers, if they get sucked in, and you do it right, they never get a good shot, and you can then drop right onto them (or slide right onto their six) and nail em.

(another common sucker tactic is to convince them that if they zoom up to you they will have a shot, which you deny then come down on their flailing stalled airframe).

One final note: the major element that separates the true E fighters and the wannabies is the art of knowing when to break off an attack and reposition. An inexperienced E fighter won't know when their shot opportunity goes south.

Thus they will continue to pursue the shot, blowing their E advantage, and usually putting themselves in a world of hurt tactically. Note that this works both ways, you can use this tendancy to defeat an opponent. But learn to break off, and when the shot is no longer any good, or is never good and you realize this, pull up and go vertical.

An example of this is when the guy you're bouncing or diving on does a split-s or nose-down defensive manoever. *always* pull up. This does 2 things: 1) it preserves your E, while he blows more E in his nose-low manoever. Sure he might get away but he sure isn't going to be in a position to shoot at you antyime soon. 2) if he does his manoever at high g's, you are now above him, and can continue turning onto him, rolling with his turn, and get a nice tracking shot. Again, break off if this stops working, and zoom again. But I can't stress enough how important it is to learn how to recognize when you don't have a good shot and it is time to reposition.

Anyway, I've gotten carried away :)

check out my site, grab a 109F and go E fight =) And remember: there is nothing wrong with being higher than the enemy {G}

: Unless Im mistaken.. I believe that zooming and booming is in fact "Energy Fighting".

: Yeager out!

Both BnZ and TnB are "subsets" of Energy fighting. BnZ is the technique of maintaining a superior energy state over the enemy via altitude, then attacking him repeatedly with high speed passes, zooming back up to the original altitude. TnB is the art of directly turning energy into angle and position, by performing high-g turn manoevers with an enemy fighter, and relying on superior E retention in the turn combined with E accumulation from the engine to gain angles on him faster than he does. E fighting includes these techniques and more. A good E fighter can choose to TnB, BnZ, or other more traditional E techniques at will, and be equally competent at any of these.

Remember: E comes from your engine only. That is the only aspect of your plane that gives you more E.

Everything else takes it away. Drag, whether it be parasitic (based on your speed and resistance to that speed), induced (resulting from the creation of lift), or (to a lesser extent) propellor drag (this plays a small part though). A higher speed aircraft will lose more of it's energy to parasitic drag than a lower speed one. Maximum speed is where energy drain from parasitic speed equals energy gain from the engine. G load directly affects induced drag, and sustained turn speed is the point at which the induced drag at stall angle-of-attack plus the parasitic drag of that speed equals the thrust of the plane (thus take the same plane, increase the engine power only with no weight gain, and the plane will turn better).

You can store this energy via altitude or speed. Energy fighting is the art of gaining an energy advantage over an opponent so you can do manoevers longer than he (such as turning or gaining speed quickly) which will usually allow you to gain a positional advantage.

This is why TnB is really E fighting in a sense, because the more E you have the longer you can turn at higher than sustained turn speed rates, and this lets you outturn a lower-E opponent of identical plane type. BnZ is simply climbing above someone, diving at them at high speed, and (since your E at the guns pass is higher), outclimbing him after the guns pass (since you can climb at a higher rate of climb for longer thanks to your superior E situation). But E fighting isn't limited to either of these two techniques.

Hehe got carried away again :)

hoof

Hoof's Warbirds Plane Performance Pages

Posted by: KATS

Message:

E-figthing means building an energy advantage (speed/alt) over your opponent, at which point you switch over to an angle fight (trying to gain angles for a kill shot). If you cannot get the kill shot and you begin losing the E advantage you switch back over to an E-fight and start over.

This does not mean running away everytime you are at an E disadvantage. It is possible to win an E fight when starting from the disadvantage.

The most important thing you must know when judging NME E-states is the advantages and disadvantages between the plane types. It is pretty easy to see E advantage if its in the form of alt, but if the alts are similar it is quite difficult. There are so many different variables (did he dive to get co-alt with you?, are you at max speed in a faster plane ? did he just come out of a T&B? etc. etc. etc.)

Example:

SPIT5 VS. 109F

Spit5 can outturn and outloop a 109f, however the 109f can outclimb and has a slight speed advantage over the spit.

In a duel the spit will win angles and the 109f will eventually have to extend. Since you know the 109 is slightly faster, once the closure rate of the chasing spit diminishes you know you are at least CO-E. The 109 can enter a vertical zoom knowing the spit will top out earlier if he follows since the 109 has an E advantage compounded with a climb advantage . At this point the 109 converts to an angles fight (hammerhead) and goes for a diving kill shot on a E-LESS (if not stalling) NME.

An important thing to note, had the NME be blessed with a plane with a better climb than the 109, the 109 could have very well been killed regardless of an E advantage. This is why it is so important to know all the plane characteristics, and how *much* of an E advantage you need to win an angles fight.

Plane choice is very important for E fighting. IMO I rank top speed and climb rates as the thing to look for in a good E-fighter. Ki84's, Spit9's, 109K's are probably the best.

Hope this helps.

KATS

Posted by: Kobra-

Message: It's the tedious process of building an energy advantage, regardless of how you've started the fight. It is generally easier in dissimilar planes where one has a distinct advantage (climb, dive, roll, turn) and using that advantage to build angles for a guns solution, while simultaneously preventing your opponent from doing the same :)

It's certainly possible to start 5k lower than your opponent and live to tell the story of his demise. But first, you've got to get him to expend his advantage, then convert from defense to offense. Depending on what you're flying, the specifics will vary. If he doesn't make a mistake, chances are that you'll get waxed. You're goal is to force that mistake.

Even in situations where you're both flying the same plane (classic duelling) it's certainly possible to begin to lose angles in a turning fight and proceed to win an energy fight. First, you've got to find a way to regain or at least equalize the energy and angles situation. If you're losing the turning fight, then seek a way to revamp the fight, whether that means taking it vertical, diving and using roll to keep out of his guns or whatever.

The bottom line is that you've got to, at a minimum, level the playing field...kill your opponents advantage and build yours. You can throw in a leeeetle trickery, fake a split-s and reverse into an immelman, or roll and look like you're turning hard while maintaining direction and altitude, trying to exploit his aggressiveness. If he pulls too hard in an attempt to stay 'saddled up' you can rebuild speed for a manuever that puts you back in command.

Pretty much all 1 v 1 fighting involves your relative energy state, whether it's TnB or BnZ, similar or dissimilar planes. If you're both in relatively equal E states, then you've got to look for ways to build an angle or energy advantage. If you have the advantage, you try to maintain it. If you're at a disadvantage, then you look to equalize. If your opponent's too fast, chances are his turn radius will be larger than yours...exploit that, then grab alt for his next pass. Just avoid letting him in your turn circle for a guns solution...comparitive roll rate helps here.

Depending on what your opponent is driving, mistakes can vary in cost. If he's in a Ki43 and you screw up, allowing a snapshot, no biggie...but a FW, well time to replane :)

Remember that energy state is strictly relative. Much depends on your opponent's E state, what you're both driving and who does what. An energy advantage can be a fleeting thing, easily lost or gained.

kjb1/Kobra-

WB Trainer

Posted by: wells

Message: There is plenty of excellent advice here and I can't hope to add much, but I can keep argo's post count up! :)

In looking at flying from an energy point of view, there are a few numbers to know about your aircraft. Know your maximum sustained climbing speed and angle on the pitch ladder. Know the airspeed from which you can stay at the edge of the flight envelope of your plane in a split-s type manuever. By this, I mean a split-s from 300 mph is not such a good energy move if your plane only does 310. You will lose too much altitude for the speed gain. 2000' is approximately equivalent to 120 mph in energy units. If you surpass your planes maximum level speed in a dive and level off, the speed will fall to maximum (loss in e) without any compensation (altitude). Know the speed from which you can perform an immelman into a maximum sustained climb. Do not attempt such a maneuver at a lower speed. Anywhere in between these speeds is ok for horizontal maneuvering (usually between 180-250 mph) provided you stay within those speeds and you gain some kindof angle advantage (think in 3d). If you are not in immediate trouble...climb and watch ur opponent and think of a maneuver be it offensive or defensive. Almost always when your opponent is above you, it will a defensive one (I fly 90 degrees to incoming flight path and perform barrel roll/split-s at d-12 or so from a 150 mph climb...works well most of the time :) Use roll rates in vertical (either up or down) to change direction...look out sides to aquire enemy. The direction of vertical movement is dependant upon airspeed as mentioned above. If you see a Ki-84 or a Fw190, blow all your E and go for the kill! hehe

I think it is mostly dicipline that is a very big factor. Patience is the key...and the P-47 teaches this very well and quickly...at least it did for me. It constantly reminds you of just what you did wrong..and points it out clearly. As much as I like the 47, I actually think the Dora is a good aircraft for this as it allows for time to think in combat either by running or zoom climbing etc. It possesses the qualities that help SA and thus one's ability to manage one's energy state (good vis, good ammo, fast, high roll rate) If people call you a dweeb for flying it, just ask yourself "what are they doing to improve their skills right now?" I do have to agree with hoof though, a 109 is probably my worst feared plane and the hardest to maneuver against....(don't know what the heck he's gonna do!) I have more HO's with 109's...definitely a thinking man's airplane.

wells