Windle posted 02-22-99 10:37 AM ET (US)        

I am curious to know what some consider the most efficient amount of g's to pull in the Corsair when pulling out of an attack dive. I know there are variables that come into play but in trying to maintain my 'E' I usually try not to pull more than 2 to 2 1/2 G's on pull out. When my dive exceededs 375 or so this translates into very extended climbouts which IMO takes me too far away from the bogie and doesn't allow me to keep as much pressure on him as I'd like. It does however allow me to keep my advantage over my opponent none the less. What are your opinions on maximizing pressure on an opponent while also maintaining the maximum amount of 'E' in the Corsair?

-Windle-

Jekyll posted 02-22-99 08:53 PM ET (US)            

Try this windle... instead of making your attack run a dive.. make it a climb. That is, instead of being pointed down as you come within guns range.. try to make your attack run from beneath the bandit so that you are actually climbing slightly as you come within guns range.

This will:

1. Make you blow far less energy when you reverse after the pass,

2. Maximise your chances of taking him by surprise,

3. Make it a lot easier to compensate for his evasive maneuvers once you get within guns range.

Let me know how it works out for you

Windle posted 02-24-99 11:18 AM ET (US)            

Works like a charm!

You're priceless Jekyll

-Windle-

argo posted 02-24-99 03:00 PM ET (US)            

OK...I'll bite.

Aren't you giving up some E by going below the con to make the attack? I mean you're slowing down as you "climb" up to convergence (or whatever you fire at) and have less E when making your escape for the next pass (if you need one).

Just curious. I suck and am a hopeless TnB pilot, so I'm trying my damnest to get *any* help in here that I can. This attack profile goes against most of what I understand about using a BnZ ride.

Doug

WB: -argo- {501 FF}

argo@cyberus.ca - dough@mediaone.net

Windle posted 02-24-99 03:57 PM ET (US)            

Here's how I understood and implemented Jekyll's post:

I dive onto the bad guy building my E while efficiently regulating my G load and level off slightly under his six o'clock just before I get within guns range. If he hasn't seen me at that point then when I 'wake him up' he'll be hard pressed to locate my exact position because I am below his FOV on his six (albeit closing very fast). At this point I have just transitioned thru level flight just below the con and am just pulling up into a shallow climb. The way I'm doing it the transition hasn't really cost me any E at the time I goto guns and I've given myself a much better Angle Off Tail position for the attack.

Going through with my gun pass I find myself with all my E intact and (here's the big plus) have my nose pointed in a direction that offers me many more options than having it pointed at a very steep down angle. Instead of blowing massive E recovering from the dive THEN trying to gain altitude advantage over my target for the next pass, I can immediately transition smoothly into the vertical and use that E to direct myself into a much more profitable position.

The whole point (as I took it) is not to build your E in the initial dive while ALSO being regulated with the burden of holding steady on your shot. I can build my E in the dive then, with room for positioning just behind the con, transition much more smoothly into my attack and, after the pass, find myself going vertical right over the cons head instead of extending from beneath him thus robbing him of the chance to get too much SA over me and manuver to his favor.

It's the same as a normal BnZ you are just going to guns right in the upswing of your pass rather than in the initial dive.

-Windle-

Jekyll posted 02-24-99 10:25 PM ET (US)            

Well argo.. the reason the climbing attack seems to be more energy efficient is based on the kinds of defensive maneuvers you see.

In the boom portion of the attack, most targets tend to roll and break slightly downwards. The temptation for the BnZ pilot is to try to follow them 'just that bit further' to get his shot.

Before he knows it, he's pointing down at a 30degree angle and vertically overshooting his target's flight path. The BnZ pilot then either has the option of gradually pulling out of his dive (in which case he's lost his altitude advantage), or pulling mucho G's (in which case he'll bleed off a heap of speed)

But making a long, smooth dive to slightly below the target level means that, should the target break low, you could still follow him for a short distance until, say, you were level with the horizon. If you haven't killed him by then.. time to zoom climb.

Most of these problems seem to stem from trying to BnZ a target from too close a range. You're D10 away and 3000' above him.. you have no choice but to angle downward. But if you commence your run from D20 or D25 out.. you can make that gentle dive, level off and slight climg much more E efficiently.

Duckwing6 posted 02-25-99 02:40 AM ET (US)            

Also if you'tre coming from below him and zoom past him he meight be more suspectible for a spiral rope or a normal rope 'cause when you were flying by you had your nose allready pointed up and thus looking slower than you really are 'cause your not covering that much horizontal distance but rather vertical.... worked quite good in AW3 for me but just can't make it work in WB (yet) HAHAH

Phil (DW6)

Jekyll posted 02-25-99 05:54 AM ET (US)            

One other thing I should have mentioned. By attacking during a climb you are virtually forcing your opponent to go nose low in defence.

Obviously, if you're faster than he is, and approaching from below, he's dead meat if he chooses to climb as part of his defensive move. Even if he breaks level you still are in good position to kill him. So his most effective defence is to break low towards you.

Since he has gone nose low in defence, your zoom is doubly effective... not only have you performed a low G zoom to maximise your own altitude and energy, but you've probably forced the bandit to lose some of his own altitude and energy as part of your attack.

eadg posted 02-25-99 09:11 AM ET (US)            

The technizue Jekyll (correctly) describes is what -sick- taught me years ago as the "swoop". It has many advantages, including:

* Allowing attack from a low 6 position, making it hard for the nme to see you if he doesn't already know you are there.

* Controlling your rate of closure, so instead of accelerating at the end of a long dive and being TOO fast in some cases, you are now decelerating through the sweet spot at the time of firing to allow for better correction for c guns solution.

* The aforementioned ability to keep your egress as a lo-gmaneuver, instead of a massively loaded change from a 30 dgree dive to a 45 degree climb at the overshoot (which many bnz pilots do, incorrectly, and watch in horror as the spitfire they were attacking climbs with gentle ease right up to them and blows them to pieces).

* The ability to maintain a guns solution against many defensive maneuvers.

A word of caution tho - as argo points out, you don't want to be in such a high AoA climb, losing speed, that you lose the ability to separate safely after the attack.

The swoop, as taught to me and later modified, goes like this:

1. Start above and behind the enemy (where else hehehe), I prefer about d20 vertical separation and d50 horizontal.

2. Start a shallow (20 degrees or so) dive to the bgies extended 6. Stay at full speed, and wep if the enemy may have lots of speed (came out of a dive, is in a dora, 51, etc.). Your goal is to be co-alt at a point

d20 or so behind the enemy. Start to make the dive even more shallow.

3. Finish the dive another couple of hundred yards, ONLY, below the enemy. You should now be d3 or 4 below the enemy, and d15 or so behind.

4. Start a lo-g climb AT the target (since you are JUST below, the climb angle should be VERY shallow). Don't pull too much lead or you'll have to adjust too much at the point of firing AND risk a collision. You should be closing rapidly but not uncontrolably (as you would if you dove at the enemy all the way in). Each energy plane has a "sweet spot" speed, at which it is ultra-stable and responds to minimal control input smoothly and obediently - you'll have to spend time in a plane to find its sweet spot, but once you know it, your goal is to be AT that speed when you are at d5 (obviously, that means you went a bit ABOVE that speed on your approach dive).

5. Hold your fire until about d4 (I use a convergence of 275). STOP firing at d1.5 and perform a lo-g pull up past and slightly above the enemy. You should still have a HUGE speed advantage at this point from the dive (and only a few seconds and lo-g's to bleed it off).

Any defensive the enemy pulls if you are still in his lo 6 at d10 or so should still afford you a decent snapshot, but DON'T pull through a turn with the nme; instead, apply an appropriate vertical reversal based on the enemy's speed, aspect, and perceived skill level (a set-up hammerhead, a hi yo, a wingover, or a zoom to the perch are all valid based on the setting).

Over the years, I've found that I prefer to attack from lo 4, 5, 7 or 8. That puts me in a nice blind spot, AND keeps my risk of collision lower as the intersection of our flight paths describes a much smaller 3d space in this orientation (as opposed to a direct 6 closure, even at a high speed differential).

Hope this helps! Stop by the training arena Sunday through Thursday nights (I'm on Mondays with hard, scop, and kjbl) and any of the trainers can help you on this one.

Good Luck!

=eadg=

Member, Warbirds Training Staff

funked posted 02-25-99 11:48 AM ET (US)            

Good stuff guys!

This is what Shaw calls "avoiding vertical overshoot".

One benefit that wasn't mentioned is that if you attack during the dive, miss your shot, then fly under him, he can make an efficient move to get a momentary guns solution while you are pulling out.

And if you blow too much energy in the pullout, this may end up being a more than momentary solution!!!

But if you pull out early and make the low 6 attack as described, you get to make a low-g maneuver to level, and you can stay in his rear quarter.

Jekyll posted 02-26-99 08:50 AM ET (US)            

and if you're flying a fast roller like the 190 and your target breaks.. you can transition immediately to a pure vertical climb and roll your lift vector onto your target, pull through and be on him again before he can blink!

Of course... this move can also get you killed really easily

Duckwing6 posted 03-01-99 02:32 AM ET (US)            

was tryig the F4U yesterday again and found out that i can't effectively gain alt after the pass.. i did a pass on a Spit withabout 350 kts then zoomed up to a speed of around 130-150kts, then i reversed with a wing over ... after that pass the spit was co alt and had lost NOTHING of her speed .. even thou this guy was climbing all the time after me..

Did i pull up too sharply ?