Posted by: Topcat (RAF, Duxford Wing)

Message: If I am at 10k in a Spit 9 with a P51B on my 6 at D5 (not B&Z), what are my best options? Is it a case of dragging the enemy to some friends, or are there any tricks I can use to turn this around? Would this change if the enemy were a P38?

All help would be most welcome!

Topcat

Posted by: =worr=

Message: That all depends. :)

Is he closing? Are you climbing?

One thing you should consider first of all and that is d5 is more like d4 and you are already dead.

If he is closing than a juke will do....stomp on rudder and cross control it to force an overshoot.

If he has you saddles you need to break turn low.

Mind you, you are not working to reverse him at this point. You are just trying to survive the kill shot he obviously has.

If you are above 300ias he can out turn with you...but as you get down to corner speed you will out turn him....so you arae going to have to breakwith some roll and rudder too.

Worr, out

Posted by: ik

Message: A big mistake many spit pilots make is useing a hard bat turn as their only defensive maneuver. While this would most likely get the p51b off your 6, if he has half a brain he'll just keep flying and you'll lose any chance of killing him since you've blown all your e. There are different defensive maneuvers i would employ in different situations. If the p51b was diving on me, i would actually nose down, and do a snap roll or two, and then zoom up to try to blast him after he overshot. If it's a chase situation, a rolling scissors would work very well as the p51's roll rate is not so stellar slower than 250mph. If he trys to follow kill him after he overshoots. All in all though, if you pit a great spit9 pilot against a great 51b pilot in a duel situation, i'll put my money on the 51b. It's all a matter of e, of which the 51b is master.

Now, against a 38 it's a whole new ball of wax! First of all, i'll assume were talking about a p38j since that's comparable in the timeline with a spit9. The spit9s dive performance is FAR superior to a 38j. If he's diving on you, all you need is a slight course change and you'll mess up his pass. If it's a chase situation, a break turn is the LAST thing you want to do, the p38 turns great, better than a spitfire. I think a horizontal scissors would easily shake the 38j off a spit's tail, as glacial epochs pass before a slow 38j can complete a 360 degree roll.

Over all, i'd say the spit9 rolls much better than it's given credit for, and this ability should be used in defense. Scissors, vertical scissors, barrel rolls and such work very well with the spit9, and all of these maneuvers conserve much more e than the break turns i see spits doing all the time (which btw make you a very big target). Turning only wins fights against dweebs, against a decent pilot who knows his plane it's all about e (except of course yak3's which dont need e :)

Lastly, i suggest you take up a p51b or 38j, and see what spit maneuvers work the best against you!

ik

Posted by: Woebird

Message: Damn finicky thing. Is there any particular reason why we have not mentioned the split-s? IMhO the problem is twofold, a) survive, and b) destroy. I have found that the split-s, preceded by a quick nose down if there are tracers flying by, is the most reliable way for me to clear my 6, if only temporarily. What I do next depends on how the opponent reacts. I am not out of the woods, by a long shot, but at least I have given myself a little time to think.

Woebird

Posted by: Topcat (RAF, Duxford Wing)

Message: :If the p51b was diving on me, i would actually nose down, and do a snap roll or two, and then zoom up to try to blast him after he overshot.

By 'snap roll' do you mean a rudder assisted roll, or is there more to it than that?

: Over all, i'd say the spit9 rolls much better than it's given credit for, and this ability should be used in defense. Scissors, vertical scissors, barrel rolls and such work very well with the spit9,

Yes, I've used the flat scissors to great affect on several occasions, but have no idea how to do a vertical scissors. How much vertical should I use? Is it just a scissors with some nose-up? How does it differ from a flat scissors?

:Lastly, i suggest you take up a p51b or 38j, and see what spit maneuvers work the best against you!

Duh! The easiest answers are always the best (why didn't I think of that!) ;-)

Topcat

Posted by: ik

Message: : : :If the p51b was diving on me, i would actually nose down, and do a snap roll or two, and then zoom up to try to blast him after he overshot.

: : By 'snap roll' do you mean a rudder assisted roll, or is there more to it than that?

: (SNIP) A snap roll is just a rudder assisted roll like you said. Just roll like a madman and you'll be making a "corkescrew throught the air." It's very hard to hit, and you save e.

: : : Over all, i'd say the spit9 rolls much better than it's given credit for, and this ability should be used in defense. Scissors, vertical scissors, barrel rolls and such work very well with the spit9,

: : Yes, I've used the flat scissors to great affect on several occasions, but have no idea how to do a vertical scissors. How much vertical should I use?

Is it just a scissors with some nose-up? How does it differ from a flat scissors?

: Oops! I meant to say "rolling scissors." Not vertical scissors. A rolling scissors is like a horizontal scissors turned on it's side. A tip, liberal use of rudder is highly recommended when doing horizontal, or rolling scissors, to aid in tightening your turn radius.

: A vertical scissors is like scissors straight up. It's usally performed just after a merge, when the two dueling ac are trying to gain an e advantage over eachother. They merge, immelman, then immelman again and again and again. Trying to gain e over the other guy without providing the nme with good angle. In a vertical scissors, the last person to stall out higher wins.

ik

Posted by: krod's WarBirds Pages

Message: : By 'snap roll' do you mean a rudder assisted roll, or is there more to it than that?

By snap roll, I understand it to be the following manoeuvre. You're flying horizontally...

Haul back on the stick. This will stall the wings, and force a spin but you'll be spinning horizontally. You can help with a bit of rudder.

The trick is to stop the spin quickly. As soon as the aircraft starts to spin, centre the controls. Do this offline with smoke on - you'll see just how quickly the AC rolls.

With a bit of practise, you'll be able to snap one very quick roll, allowing said Pony to blow by, and be ready on guns before he's realised you did something funny. You lose very little E in this manouevre.

The purpose of this snap roll is to spoil his guns solution, and force the overshoot. Obviously he should be faster than you...

Interesting fact no. 1: Quickest recovery from inverted flight in WarBirds? Snap a half-roll... so, pull back, and watch your AC snap upright.

krod

Posted by:=worr=

Message: : Haul back on the stick. This will stall the wings, and force a spin but you'll be spinning horizontally. You can help with a bit of rudder.

You'll have to stomp on it a bit more. But stomp and get off as you go into a spin...1 revolution is all you need...and perhaps not even that. You basically stand still as the 51 blows past.

This would be the right move if there is closure, and you have confidence in the move. I wouldn't suggest it every time for every pilot.

Worr, out

Posted by: krod's WarBirds Pages

Posted by: Topcat (RAF, Duxford Wing) on 06:47:07 7/17/98

Message: : So I'm at 250 ias, with a con my 6 d5, and I just yank back and kick in rudder? My (crap) instincts say I will be blasted soon after I pull back. I suspect the key is a *very* sharp pull back (blackout?) to stall the wings quickly? Get it wrong and it's 'Kill of Topcat awarded to....' hehe

Yes - the con to all of this. I really love a guy pulling up into my gunsight. You need to do a *quick* snap. Not ease into a stalled condition.

The easiest way of snapping (my little daughter can do it) is to pull the stick right back and step on the rudder - full. Then center as SOON as the AC starts to flick onto its back.

You may want to try a quick bob down or a skid first to throw his aim off. There are very few that can hit me in the snap - Jester was the last one if I remember correctly - in a P-51B as well.

krod