Hobo posted March 02, 1999 08:25 PM

For many years I have flown R/C Planes. Some aerobatic, some WW2 Scale, and many, many trainers. Some of them have power to spare, Some (most scale models) fly strictly on the "wing" with little or no power to spare. ALL of them are capable of a hammerhead (or as we call it, a Stall Turn). I've tried, and tried, and tried, but I can't seem to make any of the WB's planes do a decent stall turn.

They all seem to just plain "mush" out at the top of the stall. Tried kicking in rudder with lotsa speed, medium speed, and low speed, with very little success. It feels as though the WB's planes just don't have enough rudder throw to make a true stall turn. So now I come to my real question.

How do you do a decent vertical reversal? Whether it be a stall turn, a hammerhead, a wing-over, or a Pitchback (tm)? You hear so much about the instant vertical reversal that is done in 109's, 190's, Hogs, etc. So tell me please, how is it done? Seriously, I'm interested in knowing the exact series of stick movements to get the "instant" effect.

Some people say it's "gaming-the-game" and others disagree, me I don't care either way. I just want to improve my WB skills and this month I'm concentrating on the vertical reversal.

I've seen (and been victim) to Gunjam, Hatch, and Drex doing this. Can anyone give me detailed instructions and advice on how to practice this offline?

Thanks!!!

Hobo

Konrad posted March 02, 1999 08:44 PM            

Well a hammerhead is IMHO best done in a 109 or 190 (hog is good for it too i think) becuase they have excellent rudder control at low speed.

Here is what I do for a hammerhead:

1. Zoom vertical, 90 degrees is prefered.

2. Once you get somewhere around 200km (more less, doesnt have to be any exact speed) you rudder full left (it is easier to do left except in Spit14 becuse the torque wont cause to do spin there endlessly.

3. As you pull full left rudder put in a little roll to the right to keep your plane from rolling over to the left.

4. As you are near finishing the hammerhead easy on the rudder and especially aileron.

5. Aim and blast away anything that was on your long 6 trying to climb up with you.

It takes some practice to know when to put enough aileron and rudder, but it's really not that hard.

BB Gun posted March 02, 1999 10:16 PM            

I don't do a true hammerhead/stall turn,more like a turtle flop.

I push it to about 50 to 100 ias depending on the plane, hanging on my prop, and if in an F4U fighting the torque with ail and rudder. I then chop throttle and let the controls go, and I flip over nice as can be. My biggest failing in this is that I sometimes forget to chop throttle and instead of flopping over on my back (or side or belly), end up doing a somersault with a 1 and 1/2 twist and lose sight of the bogey below. BAD thing to do.

This is easiest to do in the inline Ami Iron, as they are heavy enough to resist the comparatively small torque imparted by their inline engines. You have to balance the throttle alot more in the light and powerful spits, and the Radial iron involves a lot of torque fighting control work.

Of course, at the top I am a BIG FAT sitting duck for any wingmen/countrymates who happen along.

Brendan "BB Gun" Bayne

SnakeEyes posted March 02, 1999 10:47 PM            

This is easiest to do in the inline Ami Iron, as they are heavy enough to resist the comparatively small torque imparted by their inline engines.

Ummm.... dunno about that. The 51 has crap rudder control and isn't very good at hammerheads.

Alleycat posted March 03, 1999 09:04 AM            

Well I cant speak for the LW planes but the US Iron I can try and explain what I do...

DISCLAIMER: They aint pretty and if it was an acro compitition I would loose ...

I use the same method in the F4U and the F6F Also works in the zekes...(a bit differently tho).

1. I pull pure vertical aiming for the sun most times (but not if its setting <G> )...

2. I like to keep a slow roll going through the vertical so I am not too big a target.

3. at about 100 ias I pull the throttle back to 0% and let the plane slow more (1 -2 seconds).. then kick full rudder (left on US planes) and firewall the throttle (this adds some torq) this should produce the desired effect but somtime you time it wrong so if the plane is still hanging and not coming around I will snap it around with back and left stick...

NOTE if you are too slow the plane will snap opposite of the rudder input.. this control reversal happens when the plane is falling backward.. and when it does its snaps the other way RIGHT now! ..

IMHO judging from what I see in training vertical moves are the least used in WB and where alot of the "ace" pilots tend to accel VS others..

The best practice for this type of stuff is basic airshow type of moves (I love doing these)... also notworthy is being able to shoot inverted <G>... When you are back on the way down after a move like this it helps not to have to roll 180 before taking a shot ..

BTW I also fly RC planes... mostly retired from fixed wing stuff last year and moved into Heli's

Alleycat

Warbirds Training Staff

BB Gun posted March 03, 1999 06:31 PM            

I don't do a true hammerhead/stall turn, more like a turtle flop.

Just wanted to clarify.

I have yet to ever do a clean hammerhead. But I find that since this is not aerobatics competition, I dont need to. I just need a quick reversal at the top, and letting the natural tendency of the heavy end to go DOWN at the top of a climb works well.

Brendan "BB Gun" Bayne

Daff posted March 04, 1999 06:26 AM            

From the rec.aviation.aerobatics faq:

Wing Over

The Wing-Over is a competition maneuver in glider aerobatics. You pull up and at the same time bank the plane. When the bank increases past 45 degrees, the nose will start to drop while the bank keeps increasing and the plane keeps turning. Halfway through the maneuver, the plane has turned 90 degrees, the fuselage is level with the horizon and the bank is 90 degrees. The plane is above the original flight path. The nose then keeps dropping below the horizon and the plane keeps turning, while the bank is shallowed. When the bank drops below 45 degrees, the nose is pulled up towards the horizon and the plane reaches horizontal flight with wings level after 180 degrees of turn.

At the completion of the maneuver, the plane is at the same altitude as on entry and flying in the opposite direction.

Hammerhead

It starts with a quarter loop into a vertical climb. When the plane stops climbing, it pivots around its vertical axis (which is now horizontal).The nose moves in a vertical circle from pointing up through the horizon to pointing down. After moving vertically down to pick up speed again, the maneuver is finished with the last quarter of a loop to horizontal flight.

This figure can have optionally rolls on both the up-line and the down-line. The quarter loop is flown just like the first part of a loop. When the plane is vertical, the elevator backpressure is released completely. During the vertical line up, some right aileron and right rudder is needed to maintain the vertical attitude because of the engine torque and p-factor. When the plane has slowed enough, full rudder initiates the turnaround. It is followed by right-forward stick (right aileron and forward elevator) to keep the plane from torquing off. The pivot is stopped with opposite rudder when the nose points straight down. When the pivot is completed, the ailerons and rudder are neutralized. Elevator and rudder are used to keep the nose pointing straight down. The pivot must be completed within one wingspan.

Rolls on the downline require only aileron input if the plane is trimmed correctly.

This maneuver is sometimes called a hammerhead stall. This is not an accurate name because the airplane never stalls. The airspeed may be very low, close to zero, but since there is no wingloading during the turn-around, there is no stall (at zero g wing loading, a wing does not stall). The plane is flying throughout the maneuver with all the control surfaces effective (although sometimes only marginally so).

The easiest plane to do the hammerhead in is the P38..no torque and good rudder authority..and you can let the speed drop to less than 50 ias before turning it over...or just leave it and do a tailslide

Daff

Duckwing6 posted March 04, 1999 01:15 PM            

heheh talking about gliders... i've an aerobatic endorsement in gliders and believe me the hammerhead turn (only called "turn" here) is by far one of the most difficult manouvers... especially when you have no Prop slipstream on your rudder... apply rudder too fast and you'll get a perfect side slip in the vertical and not turn the plane .. apply rudder at too slow a speed and it won't bring the nose around and then talk about TAIL SLIDE

Phil (DW6)

Ghostt posted March 08, 1999 12:50 PM            

My advice, read the "Book of Dweeb" by jedi.

Esp the chapter about the unholy p38 flip turn. "Nay not 100, or 50 or even 25 ias, but zero be thy number and the number is zero"

In the Zeke it's possible to come out of it very quickly.I like to run it out with full throttle to between 50 & 75 ias. Ussually it ends up doing a half spin corkscrew before full control is regained, this can be to your advantage if done right. wait too long and it will wobble all over the sky before gaining control.

vila posted March 08, 1999 01:33 PM            

Just a note: the advantage of a true hammerhead as opposed to a "flop" is that more control is retained in the hammerhead...you're not QUITE the grape you are in a flop. Also, haven't seen in mentioned here, but the P-38 is an outstanding hammerhead plane...no torque

=vila=

Warbirds Training Staff

Inet posted March 12, 1999 08:20 AM            

then kick full rudder (left on US planes) and firewall the throttle (this adds some torq) this should produce the desired effect but somtime [...]

what does firewall in this context mean?

Inet

Kevdog posted March 12, 1999 10:31 AM            

Firewall the throttle means full throttle (100%)

janneh posted April 01, 1999 01:32 PM            

Talking about wingovers & hammerheads.

Are they really usefull in MA or are

they just "nice move that I can do" ?

I mean if you're hanging with your prop,

you're really easy target for anyone, who's coming around. I can see, that when flying 190 and doing BnZ, they could be usefull, if you get foe on your six during zooming. But still...

One unforgettable situation;

I saw F6F doing hammerhead and headed there with my 109F, he was just still and watching me as I shot him to death ! And then mighty =Drex= was killed by janneh, the mighty dweeb Never going to forget it !

But in another hand, I read from AGW, that it's possible to do continuous wingovers to outturn better turning ac. But I guess, that demands some flying skills too

Not for me thx.

janneh down and out !

ac posted April 01, 1999 01:45 PM            

Inet wrote "what does firewall in this context mean?"

Hello, your firewall is what seperates your cockpit from the engine up front. So when someone says "Put your throttle to the wall", or "firewall it" It means get your throttle pusher,handle, or whatever you got all the way forward as far as it can go.

Jester posted April 01, 1999 08:19 PM            

janneh: the hammerhead is definitely a great move to utilize in the main arena...i did it to you a few times the other day

you were in a 110 i was in a ki i think....u tried to follow me up..u stalled and i had an easy flat target...

its a great move but can be risky. u have to judge e states well..takes alot of practice and time to get good with it.

Jester ~Hell's Aces~

scrmbl posted April 19, 1999 12:35 PM            

I believe the "wing over" is also known as a "chandelle". I've done these in gliders, and they're very hard to get just right. One in three is not a bad effort

Gryf posted April 19, 1999 05:43 PM            

Scrmbl: A Chandelle is a Max performance climbing turn. At least that is what they call it on the commercial checkride

Michael Weber

=Gryf=

eadg posted April 19, 1999 06:46 PM            

CC gryf, the chandelle is that frustrating climbing turn that a good 109 pilot will use to drag you into no-e-land. It lets the chandelling pilot keep their ac at the edge of a stall while staying close enough to pounce, which by definition will keep a lower/less-e enemy at or below stall speed AND safely out of guns range/attitude. Then, it's just a matter of choosing when to roll down over one wing down on the stalling fella. If you've ever had an e fighter turn soft, climbing circles above you, always forcing you to turn AND climb to not let him behind you, you've been watching a chandelle.

The wingover is typically used to change (vertical) direction quickly, from climbing to diving. It's a snap roll, usually just before stall speed, and then a pull-down back into a dive. If you've been in a rolling scissor fight lately, the thing you both do at the top of your respective flight paths in each cycle of the rolling scissor is a wingover

=eadg=

Member, Warbirds Training Staff

scrmbl posted April 20, 1999 04:59 AM            

So George Bernard Shaw WAS right! Two nations, separated by a common language. I prefer some American terms, ie "landing gear" seems better than "undercarriage".