maa posted 01-25-99 02:30 PM ET (US)        

I've been reading a bunch about the problems with HO's (as well as other discontent). Those who take HO's have been called (insert favorite derrogatory term here).

While I don't normally take HO's, I believe that it was, historically, a valid tactic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here. The typical tactic for when someone was in an advantageous position was to turn into them and face them, not to turn tail and run. This often lead to a series of reversals and HO's.

If you have a beef against those doing HO's, you need to learn how to avoid them and turn it to your advantage. If someone is doing a HO on you, they are pretty predictable. Read up on some of the excellent lectures out there on the web on how to do it. I believe Flet or Worr have a great lecture on their sites.

With flame-proof suit firmly on,

--maa- =4th FG=

Kieren posted 01-25-99 02:55 PM ET (US)            

I think the main argument against HO's is the likelihood of it resulting in a collision. Inexperienced pilots are likely to press too far and mix this with a bit of lag...

Your points are succint and well taken. There are times when there is no choice but to face the other guy down, but avoiding the HO allows you to live longer in most other cases. In real life you really wouldn't want to stare down 4x20mm's or 6x.50's anyway... bullet-proof glass ain't that bulletproof.

Kieren

332nd Fighter Squadron

The Black Aces

Baby Harp Seal Wing

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-25-99 02:57 PM ET (US)            

While i almost never try for the HO shot, I have little trouble with people who try to HO me. Usually i laugh at what an idiot they are as i gain angles and energy over them as they try for an impossible shot . However i disagree about the HO being a valid historical tactic. It wasn't except against bombers. Read my thread below about "it's the pilot not the plane." One of the subtopics brought up was that in real life, you can die. You think pilots would allow themselves to be fired at just for a chance to fire at the other guy, in the meantime racing on a collision course at closure speeds up to 800mph? I don't think so! No one in their right mind would risk their neck like that, but warbirds pilots do . As for turning into your attacker, yes that is the correct maneuver but even those who do not take the HO shot turn into their attacker. Also our guns are much more accurate than real life guns (read 1.5 foot diameter bullets/shells in warbirds, no dispersion), so it's much easier to hit someone in that head on 800 yard shot. To put it simply, if you want to die you take head on shots. That is true in real life and Warbirds.

Another thing about turning into your attacker. Thinking about it more, it is not always the best maneuver. I know i will often force an overshoot by turning away from my superior E attacker, and then I'm on his 6. To prevent him from shooting you even a simple horizontal scissors works wonders, but be sure he has more E than you, otherwise you'll be in trouble.

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

Val_DoD posted 01-25-99 03:40 PM ET (US)            

What bothers me is when I try to avoid the HO, and the con corrects and aims at me like a brainless Sidewinder Missle.

If that "B-SWM" is flying something with 1 or more cannon, then my ACM-correct lead turn usually results in a snap-shot ping, that removes vital parts from my A/C.

With net-lag it is an art timing your turn and avoiding the HO monkeys. An art that I feel is extremely A-Historical. If you read Shaws book he describes how to judge a cons firing solution, and whether he is pulling enough lead to be a threat, by the attitude of his AC. With a 200-1000ms Net-Lag this is usually impossible

val

Scott (Val_DoD) Valline

cptkid posted 01-25-99 05:43 PM ET (US)            

I am trying more and more to avoid HO's but like said above that sometimes it is unavoidable. If I see a con coming my way I tend to either try to get a higher alt advantage so hopefully he will fly by lower than I am so I can reverse and get on his six

or I try to just leave the area which most of the time is impossible because he usually catches up with me right on my six. From what I have read about historics is that most the time the pilots pretty much avoided HO's because (I know I wouldn't attempt it) they could die, unlike WB's where you blow up and say to yourself "that was a dumb move" then replane and take off again looking for the bastage that got you :-). Also I read a recent interview with Chuck Yeager about engaging enemy (this comment is partly in response to the thread about how different people fly). He states that he would pick out a con and pretty much concentrate on taking that one con out instead of changing his mind all the time to the next nearest con. Of course he would definantly keep his situation awarness up to where the other cons were but he put most his efforts into trying to get into position to nail the con that he picked out. I have been trying to fly this way myself which I think has improved some of my killing skills but again this isn't exactly real life and the situations in the game come out different than what would probably transpire in real life.

CPTKID (Rough Raiders)

jedi posted 01-25-99 05:56 PM ET (US)            

Basically, what ik said :-)

When you think about headons, you have to have a clear definition in your mind. If we're talking about some sort of swirling, turning fight where you get a few front aspect shot opportunities, or where you find yourself descending or climbing toward your target who is moving roughly in the opposite direction to you, then that wouldn't fit MY definition of a headon pass. In those cases, you have many avenues of escape open to you, only a few of which have any potential for collision, and you also probably have much lower closing speeds, on the order of 300-400 mph.

Contrast that to the high-speed, long-range, directly-opposite passes that you can typically get away with in most offline sims. That sort of attack, pressed far enough, can give you a very high percentage shot if your reflexes are quick enough to get on target. The penalty a real pilot would pay is that this is extremely dangerous, and not easy to avoid unless you "bail out" early from the pass. Any direction you take out of the pass could also be taken by your unpredictable enemy. And of course, a real pilot would get exactly ONE chance to screw this up, making it a difficult "skill" to acquire.

In WB, since you have no fear of death, you will stay on target longer than you would if your little pink butt was on the line. So you get a better shot opportunity. Also, IMO the WB system initially favors the guy who commits first to the headon. If you pull off target at medium range, you WILL get pinged, because you just gave him a big, planform target to shoot at d5 or so, where your plane doesn't move much in his gunsight.

If you see that you're being headon-ed early, you should be able to avoid it. But if you miss that chance, you can either take your pings and pull off, hoping for a lead turn chance (fat chance against a speeding locofockewulf) or stay in the headon hoping for your own shot opportunity. Unfortunately by this time (d5 or so) the die has already been cast, some more pings are already on you that haven't registered yet, and the attacker has probably already pulled off target, leaving you a double ticking time bomb of his collision ghost and his pings not yet delivered.

Now, in the case of two slow planes, like a Wildcat vs a Zeke, you can make a case for a "safe" headon pass. But a 190 vs a Corsair in a flat-out, 700-mph closure pass? That's dweeb city, man. The pilot who tried that once and survived probably didn't go back for seconds. And lets not talk about LW attacks on buffs...that's not even the same ballgame.

This is really the only place I can see making a case for damaging both planes. If you press a headon pass so far that you "just barely" miss, in real life you probably wouldn't have missed at all. Collision avoidance in a real plane isn't a "ho-hum, guess I'll stop shooting now and do my violent last ditch escape manuever" proposition. More like "Sh**, that guy might hit me! I'm outta here!" The 8000 lbs of airplane is gonna do a whole lot more damage than the 1/2 lb of lead will.

--jedi

josf posted 01-25-99 06:37 PM ET (US)            

maa,

In the book "Fighter Tactics of The Aces's S.W.P.A. edited by Edward T. Maloney are a number of letters written by Pacific theater pilots during WWII. Here are some of the quotes referencing HO's.

Capt. Allen E. Hill P-38

"In cases where he is doing the bouncing, always try to make it at least a head-on pass. A head-on pass is without a doubt the acme of fighter pilot thrills, but rememeber there are some Japanese pilots who will not break away, so don't hold your fire too long. You have far greater range and firepower and can stay right in there and pitch until the last second. In most cases, if he is going to break, he will do it out of your range, giving you a snap shot as he breaks."

Colonel Edwin A. Doss P-47

"The enemy does not like to swap head-on passes because of our superior fire-power. Care should be exercised to initiate the breakaway not because of the suicidal intentions of the enemy pilot, but should he be dead, mid-air collisions are likely to result."

Captain Leroy V. Grosshuesch P-47

"I'd never refuse a head-on pass."

Joe

roblex posted 01-26-99 07:36 AM ET (US)            

Strangely enough it seems to me that 90% of people attempting HO on me are in 109s which have a vunerable front end and in WWII 109 pilots avoided HOs for that very reason. Allied pilots DID go HO with 109s for the same reason.

roblex

The human target drone

Kent,UK

Moose posted 01-26-99 08:31 AM ET (US)            

Last night I had a gold Spit--with a 2k alt advantage, mind you--open up in a diving HO on my Hellcat from d15. Despite the fact that he had the alt advantage and the more maneuverable plane (unless it was a 14, in which case he had the much faster plane and could disengage at will), he just dove down and came spraying and praying at me. So I blasted his oil line, then shot him as he ditched.

Moose

Flying Pigs

BYACAW