Ram1 posted 02-09-99 10:18 AM ET (US)        

Well for the first time in Warbirds, I decided to give the FW a try for an extended period of time (maybe 10 sorties, that's a lot for me in that plane) in the MA and HA arenas.

Here is what I found.

1. Its really hard to get killed in that plane if you have any ALT or E advantage.

2. You easily score points (if that is your thing) because you are faster then everyone else, you have big guns in the nose and you can RTB. Now I really understand how scores can be built up quickly in the early part of the RPS.

3. As long as you don't turn fight, you are as close to invincible in the arena's as I've experienced.

4. When you do take hits, not too much damage is done, and when you get an oil leak you have plenty of time to RTB.

5. The roll rate is great and I only hope that when I am running and jinking that I am not causing microwarps. I haven't seen any complaints on 100 yet, so I guess so far so good.

It will be interesting to see how this goes as higher performing planes appear in the arenas. But from my limited experience, if flown properly, the FW is a fairly easy plane to get kills in. I know its a different skill set, and I hate to say it, but to me its more of a ACM and SA challenge fighting in a Spit then in a FW.

Just my opinion of course and maybe if I learn some of those DocDoom reverse moves I'll change it, but right now I do not engage in T&B with that plane, I'm just not good enough yet.

And besides I needed to give IK something else to talk about

=raml= (Becoming a FW dweeb

funked posted 02-09-99 10:40 AM ET (US)            

The big guns are in the wings actually, I don't even use the nose guns unless I am out of 20mm.

I agree, it's a badass plane, especially at this point in the RPS. P-51B does everything better except roll and shoot, so beware when that comes out.

The only thing that compares to it right now is the F4U, but the 190 art has a better head position, and IMHO the F4U has lousy control harmony. The elevators are too sensitive compared to the ailerons. Also the 190A-4 has a little higher thrust/weight.

The ACM skill part comes in when you try to really push the 190A-4, take a few gambles and pick some spots to T&B if you can trade some E for a quick shot, or if you sense your opponent is not a very good at handling his plane.

If you try that you will encounter the rather abrupt and violent stall. It's easy to catch a spin because the control authority is so good. But it's enough to crash you if you are low (see 190 drivers doing this a LOT) or at least make you a sitting duck.

Also the control authority during a stall is the key to all of those maneuvers that drdoom describes so well in his book!

Bugjam posted 02-09-99 10:50 AM ET (US)            

The number one thing to keep in mind when flying 190... slow and low = dead. A slow 190 makes the best possible target in this game.

Engaging any enemy a/c with E-advantage is a suicide.

And the funniest part... watch out for B25's... they'll outturn you

Bugjam, VMF-58 Wildcards

dadi 4th FG posted 02-09-99 10:57 AM ET (US)            

Yep Ram, I kinda agree. My favorite ride is the stang. Prior to the release of the 51D, I fly the 190a4 allot.

I don't have one of those really cool LW names(warbirds ID) nor do I know any of the tricks 190 and 109 drivers have.

I just count on SA and choosing my targets very carefully.

I know many LW guys get upset with me, when I say imho the 190 is an ez ride to do well in. With good SA, average gunery, and E advantage I do pretty good in 190.

be good all

daddy

DGSBDY posted 02-09-99 11:33 AM ET (US)            

There I times when I feel invincible,( then somebody starts shootin at me) Especially in the A8 for some reason. However the spit9 at times will give you fits as it can dive with you for a short while. Yaks are a menace, especially if its one of the VVS guys, but your top end in a FW is higher so start your getaway early. I have at times when I'm hot (which is very rare) Turned fought spits as Doc mentioned when I killed KILLER in a turn fight at 50 ft in an A8. I will turn fight p51's when I have plenty of steam and they dont. The best moves to learn are the scissor to force overshoot and a high G barrel roll. If he ends up in front or breaks down and away he's dead. Drex however can do this "thing" tHAT JUST BAFFLES ME! Up,right turn, tail swings around, comes down on you as you whiz by, mind you he's doin this without losing too much E and he does it at high speeds,this is no stall turn.

I just have a problem with the term "easy". I really suck at this game and yes I get kills in a FW, but easy??? I dunno. I feel like I'm on a knife's edge when Im flyin the 190; Just a hairbreath from disaster if I get over zealous or my SA lapses for even a moment. The p47 to me has many of the same traits as the A8. Is it easy also? Not for me and I admire the guys who fly'em though. One thing I will say, 2 FW's flown with sound tactics and teamwork can hold off a huge number of adversaries, as long as Drex is'nt among them !

dadi 4th FG posted 02-09-99 12:23 PM ET (US)            

DGSBDY, ahhh hehe... I can explain...

You said "I just have a problem with the term "easy".

Spits diving with you. Turn Fighting with SPits and 51D. Fighting Killer at 50ft!

Well shucks if I were in those kind of fights and lived I would agree that to survive is not easy

But you see I rarely if ever get into those types of fights in a 190. My Acm skills are too poor for me to be that brave.

So the term easy or difficult should be applied to HOW the plane is flown, not to the plane specifically

Which is why I can say that imho the 190a4 is an ez ride to do well in.

daddy

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 02-09-99 12:32 PM ET (US)         

1. Its really hard to get killed in that plane if you have any ALT or E advantage

Yup!! Get this monster up to alt, and the cons below definantly tend to get nervous because they know they cant catch yer fast ass!!

3. As long as you don't turn fight, you are as close to invincible in the arena's as I've experienced.

EXACTLY! Whats scary is that there are actually pilots out there who CAN turn these beasts. (I can turn em....in a 50 mile radius )

These comments apply to ALL the BZ aircraft! The p51, p47, all of the great BZ'ers can pretty much make you invincible in the arena if you use em right. (which I only SOMETIMES do hahahaha) The BZ/E tactics are the deciding factors, fore if you are doing them properly and in a good high speed handling bird....you aint gonna get touched.

The transition of a good pilot from a TB type of aircraft to a non-turning beast such as the 190, can go 2 ways.

ONE, said pilot will do VERY well because he sticks with the BZ/energy techniques that the bird calls for, and he NOW has the ability to operate at speeds previously unobtainable in his TB bird. This gives him a NEW set of options to exploit against nmy birds he is already familiar with.

TWO, said pilot will do poorly because he will attempt to turn the beast, or take on more than he could handle.

The B&Z birds are a BLAST to fly! SA, patience and discipline are rewarded with a single deadly pass.

Take up a spit9 and fly it like you flew your FW, you will find that you do better in it. The spit9 has GREAT guns and I have found that the same BZ tactics work pretty well in her. The great thing about the spit is that when you are alone with a con out in the boonies, you can turn right in on that bastage, you cant do that in a fw unless you are REALY good, cuz you lose that e, and you are screwed. The spit9 and 14 are the only two decent turning planes that I can actually BZ in pretty well, they're GREAT freakin' birds.

The only problem with the BZ ers in the main is that there just arent enough targets at alt hahahaha!!!! Since alot of the cons are very low and around fields and I enjoy killing cons, I ultimately end up low and around fields as well. Than, some higher con proceeds to jump on my vulnerable-non-turning monster and blasts me out of my cockpit.

But the BZer's are a BLAST no doubt!!!

So ram...cmon, come to the dark side...join us. We have a wurger with your name on it at the geschwader hangar. Think about it....hehehehe.

"Hauptmann Ram1, Staffelkapitan" sure has a nice ring to it, dont it. HAHAHAHA

C U above,

Hey....Nice cannons!

Idiamn

Drex posted 02-09-99 01:30 PM ET (US)            

"Never turn in the 190"

"Always stay high and fast"

These quotes have misled the energy fighting crowd. I guess it really started with the definition of Energy fighting being that

used by the fast planes. All planes energy fight.

I don't think of how to beat a spit or any specific plane. Thats way to simple and ACM is not simple.

To win a fight one most be able to break down what is involved. Fighting the variables is the key to ACM.

Some of them off the top of my head:

Altitude

Speed

G's

AoA

Distance

These vairables all have a value and these values change every second to some degree. The one who reacts to these variables in the most effecient manner wins...now thats tough

Where planes make a difference is how they handle these variables.

but again don't limit yourself by thinking that if one plane has more alt or more speed that he has an advantage. No such thing.

Now instead of going into an ACM tangent I'll go back to the FW and its flying.

Simple example about The abstract art of the kill:

190-A4 vs Spit9

For this example we will keep it simple so we get use to this type of Thinking.

Spit Holds Energy extremely well

FW bleeds energy very fast

(hint: More is not always better)

The spit9 is at 15k and diving on your high 7 o'clock. He is closing.

your in a 190-a4 at 8k...your speed is 200 ias

you are not allowed to run...Escape is not an option for this scenerio. What do you do?

I'll let you guys play around with this and

add my 2 cents.

What I'm hoping is that you can see past the current limitations that a majority of the warbirds pilots live by and help you become a more ROUNDED killer.

=drex=

funked posted 02-09-99 01:39 PM ET (US)            

Idi: I agree! I never flew Spits very much until I got proficient in the Fw and other high-wingloaded planes. It's a terrific energy fighter, and like you said, if you get a con isolated you can be VERY agressive and use your smash to get position.

Yak-3 is another "t&b" plane that is untouchable if flown right.

Basically, if you learn energy tactics, can kick butt in any plane as long as 1) you start with an energy advantage, and 2) nobody comes along to spoil your party.

Cuff posted 02-09-99 02:03 PM ET (US)            

Yep, you've got it funked, but almost inevitably in the MA, someone DOES come along and spoil your party. Long range icons are to thank for that. I can't count the number of times I have been engaged one on one with someone; having fun; working it, when someone shows up with lots of E and ruins my day...

dadi 4th FG posted 02-09-99 02:23 PM ET (US)            

I used to believe that B&Z fighting was primarily based on E. I also believed who had more E held the advantage. Furthermore I also was misled and believed that having a bandit dive on your 6 is a disadvantage. This way of thinking came from 95% of the fights in the MA. The other 5% of the fights I was shown how wrong I was. IMO the most significant reason to have an E advantage is not to be used in a fight, but rather deciding on who to attack, when to attack, and when to disengage.

daddy

Dekker posted 02-09-99 02:33 PM ET (US)            

Don't tell em to B&Z in a Spitfire!

Its an RCAF state secret! =)

Spitfire 9 gives you options to ACM any way you choose. Spitfire 14 does not give you the same options.

I like the Spitfire 9. If you know how to dictate a fight with your own advantages, (position, speed, altitude, hitting power etc.) you can win in any plane, especially if it has good guns like the FW190s.

The Rams were ripping us the HA in 109Fs when we all changed to LW. Victory is really a matter of knowing different flying styles and skills, more than plane performance imho.

Much more difficult to get 7-8 kill sorties in a Spitfire B&Zing. I can do it in a heartbeat in a FW. You just need to spend 1 hour doing that 1 sortie.

FW are easy. Spitfires are great for the less patient of us. =)

Dekker

Dixie posted 02-09-99 02:34 PM ET (US)            

=drex=,

My solution would be to attempt to force an overshoot. Take advantage of the snap roll ability of the 190A4 by rolling inverted but not following the rest of the split-s pattern. Hopefully, the Spit IX driver will assume that a split-s will ensue and dives under the 190.

That's why I don't make it back to base all that often

Dix

Checkmate posted 02-09-99 02:47 PM ET (US)            

Ok, Drex, I'll give it a shot, but remember, I'm don't fly the 190 much.

If the spit has that much of an alt. advantage, I'd drop the nose a little, to gain some speed, but not a lot. I don't know the magic number here, maybe 350 ? What I'm trying to do is get the Spit really fast, so HIS turn radius is larger, and he's starting to compress. A nice low "g" Barrel roll, and he over shoots because his ailerons are locked and his elevator is too. Now, a good shooter will snap out a burst and kill the spit as it pulls away. Me? I've just prolonged my death because I don't fly the Fw190 much (because I don't know what to do next). Did I get step one right ?

Ckmt

I./JG14 Adler

Baal posted 02-09-99 03:01 PM ET (US)            

Hiya Drex. I see that situation all the time in my Spitter. The only danger to the Spit driver is if you can force me to overshoot so you can get a quick gun solution on me. While diving on the FW I'd expect my IAS to hit about 400-450 well trimmed with the throttle almost at idle by the time I get down there. My roll rate sucks bad here, so I'm guessing you're gonna use a roll in whatever you manuever you do. If I try to stay with ya to get the shot I could be in trouble.

B

Drex posted 02-09-99 03:11 PM ET (US)            

checkmate,

you want to be fast but not to fast that you minimize his closure. But fast enough so that you have enough energy to make him overshoot and then kill him. I like around 250- 300.

Now we don't want to drive him into compression...if a pilot compresses what does he do? Well since its easy to trim out of it we don't want him to go up because he cant go down. you just forced him to do something smart without him knowing it.

What do you do when you see a target flying straight. You think he doesnt see me... so you drive on in and kill him. Have you ever snuck up on a guy and he doesnt see you. You close fast and at d3 he sees you and makes a desperate jink. and it totally takes you by suprise and you whiff.

We can take that situation, but be in control of it.

So this is our setup stage. Now by taking these experiences how do we build a successful setup stage to force him through us?

Drex

Checkmate posted 02-09-99 04:16 PM ET (US)            

Drex,

Ok, so we want him to think we don't see him. I'd go level, and WEP. If I have the time, I'd leave it at that, until I reach 250-300, then maint. that speed. If he's closing too fast, maybe I lower the nose just a bit to get to that speed. Now, assuming I can see him coming all the way in, and he's coming from hi 7, when he gets to D6, I'd pull up and barrel roll around his "expected" flight path. Basically roll around him and (with luck) drop behind him for a quick shot at little deflection. I actually had this happen in the HA once, when they did the "Navy vs. Luftwaffe". I was lo in a Fw190A8, and an F6F dropped on me from High 6. I simply rolled around him and ended up on his 6, still going fast, and got a piece of him (Nasa finished him).

Next ?

Ckmt

I./JG14 Adler

Kats posted 02-09-99 04:19 PM ET (US)            

Ram1

Your mistake in your theory is that you make no account of your own experience. You say as long as you have E and SA....etc. For me this is the most complicated thing to learn in WB, E management as well as judging enemy E. SA comes with experience where you can see the enivroment and then see the future picture in your head.

So for you, already having these skills, you find the FW ez, yet put a newbie in an FW and he'll find it the hardest.

To drex:

I rembember diving on -kooc- in the exact same situtation. He took his FW into a rolling steep dive (slight barrel to it) throttle off flaps down. Fearing he would outdive my slower plane (and not knowing he cut speed) I gunned down after him realizing too late I was way too fast & blew past him. He must of gunned it when I was about d3 on him because he was on my tail real fast firing away.

worr posted 02-09-99 04:22 PM ET (US)            

drex wrote:

The spit9 is at 15k and diving on your high 7 o'clock. He is closing. your in a 190-a4 at 8k...your speed is 200 ias you are not allowed to run...Escape is not an option for this scenerio. What do you do?

Pull into him and blast him our of the air with a head on shot.

How did I do drex? <grin>

Worr

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 02-09-99 04:27 PM ET (US)         

Drex:

ok..first thing is to finally get rid of that 250kg bomb that I JUST realized I'd been flying around with...next is to scream like a scared schoolgirl, and finally PRAY that the spit driver is a 2hour flight time newbie.

Than, after all the important stuff is done, I would try to get some speed built up by pushing the nose over in a gentle dive and by rolling a bit to the left.

My goal is to try to get the spit to follow me in an oblique split-s that has some horizontal element in it as well. As he gets closer to me I increase the dive portion and pull through just on the edge of black out and hopefully watch him either "A" auger...or "B" have to break off his turn. If he breaks off his turn, ill complete my manuever and either try to run away, or grab some alt, hammerhead or wingover, and attack the bastage head on HAHAHAHA!!!

If spit dude is getting within guns range and I dont think I'll be able to black him out, I will try to reverse my roll hoping he wont be able to match it, again either running for cover, or grabbing and attempting a reversal.

The last desperate act would be to try and work some semblance of a barrel roll, hoping dude overshoots. I absolutely SUCK at barrel rolls, so if it gets to this point, I usually start searching for my chute handle.

I have had moderate success with the above techniques, BUT, more often than not, I can shake the bastage for maybe a couple of guns passes, than end up getting smoked while trying to put cannon rounds through his skull.

For me, my best defense is GOOD OFFENSE hahaha!!! Cause I SUCK at shaking them bastages off me when vulnerable!

C U above,

Hey....Nice cannons!

Idiamn

popeye posted 02-09-99 04:47 PM ET (US)            

My observations of flying the FW190A is that I am terrible in one. I can't hit a damn thing with cannons, and I am so used to turn fighting that I get impatient and dead.

popeye

Drex posted 02-09-99 05:00 PM ET (US)            

worr,

since about 95% of the FW drivers only kill by getting a HO I guess you get an A+

drex

dadi 4th FG posted 02-09-99 05:03 PM ET (US)            

Ok I'll give it a try. The only way I can think of to kill the spit is to roll and take him with a snap shot when he goes vertical over you. In order to take a shot on the bandit you have to make him/her think they have a shot. Like Drex said if they go vertical too early nothing is accomplished.

So with this as the objective what I would do is nose slightly down and to the right. You want to sucker him in. At d8 I would roll more over maybe 90-180 degrees almost inverted just for a second. This is a bluff. Very little E was used for the roll, and now bandit has 3 choices.

Choice#1 (not sure of the name for this move. Someone help) Bandit rolls opposite briefly then come around to take shot where I would be If I continued my roll/bank. If bandit does this move I roll level again. Almost same flight path and just extend. He might be about d15-d20. Now when they cash in their Alt to close Their Alt advantage is less yet their speed is up. So now we're at Choice 2 or Choice 3

Choice#2 Bandit closes and does NOT take shot either goes vertical or rolls away a bit early doesn't force me to react in defense mode. This is my favorite. The spit thinks your either going to do a flat turn or split S. Nope, you roll over again and come up Not where he is, but 2 seconds ago where you thought he is gonna be is where you end up. Plus he loses visibility of you for most of the move. You need to start the turn into/under him as soon as he pulls up. Imho maybe a 4 sec firing solotion is all you get.

Choice#3 This is the one I see the most. I have fallen victim too many times So many wbers think that since I have E advantage I can just zoom by and either hammerhead or come back again. Nope. Drex, scop, and eadg have showed me different? When bandit is closing about d5/6 and/or firing begin your roll. I roll right. I'm giving the spit a shot at me. Yes it is a difficult shot. Here is where most (imho) will go vert after their missed shot. Now you have them. All that has happened is .

Yes they have speed and alt advantage on you, but remember that d5 when you rolled. Well now here they come grabn alt right over you. You roll back upright and your good to go.

Imho maybe a 2 sec firing solotion is all you get.

So recap 1. Sucker him in

2. Bluff

3. Roll/Evade

4. Convert defense to Offense

5. Take your shot.

6. If miss, don't follow vert

daddy

Deft XO Red Falcons VVS posted 02-09-99 05:06 PM ET (US)            

the FW LOL.

Last time a flew a FW for a few sorties in a row I had to follow it up with a few sorties in a stuka to bring my ratios back down to reality.

deft

funked posted 02-09-99 05:22 PM ET (US)            

Drex didn't say how far away the guy was. Let's say it's d30.

Drex said I can't run, so I would plan gamble for a shot then run. If the guy's good that's all I'm gonna get. In the 190 you pretty much need to be looking for a shot at all times. Sustained maneuvering vs. a Spit9 with smash is not a battle I'm gonna win.

I'd definitely reverse ASAP. People tend to get antsy with a 190 pointed at them. Pull up a little, slow it down to 150ias then split-s at max g's.

On the recovery from the split-s, attain minimum vertical maneuvering speed.

After that it's up to the bandit.

1. If he's dumb he flies pure pursuit, diving steeper as I close, then goes whizzing by on his way to a 2k vertical overshoot. Then I can reverse low into his rear quarter, hope he pulls max g's and try to use my smaller turn radius to get a snapshot. This whole thing is really just an enormous vertical scissors over about 20 seconds.

He might also pull up and not overshoot, and try to zoom. This is why I attained vertical maneuver speed. Pull up, try to ping him before he's out of guns range, but reverse before he has time to turn around.

2. If the d-fire is smart, he flies lag pursuit, controls his speed (throttle), and he'll be able to get back into my rear quarter eventually. I might be able to delay this with some well-timed reverses outside guns range. If/when he ends up inside guns range behind me, I can try a brief scissors (1 left-right cycle) and hope he overshoots. If he doesn't give me a solution on an overshoot, and he hasn't shot me, I would then exit the fight in a downward vertical fashion.

Ram1 posted 02-09-99 06:27 PM ET (US)            

Kats:

I agree, not recommending the FW for newbies, all I am saying is with some WB experience the FW becomes an easier machine to get kills in then you would achieve in any other plane during this period of the RPS.

And thanks to Drex, we even got some merge lessons to try out, but what I still want to learn are those slow speed vrey fast reversals that I see every so often by very competent FW pilots.

Idiamn: hehe, I'm not quite ready for that level of commitment

=raml=

Kodiak posted 02-09-99 07:39 PM ET (US)            

Ok Drex. I will bite, hows this?

He is closing from the 7:00 position so I unload, punch wep, and start a turn to the left. Like you said get to about 300 ias. Am assuming he is far enough back that the left turn will increase the deflection and steepen his dive. He either breaks off high, takes a high deflection shot, or tries to saddle up. If he takes the shot with his nose down I turn back right nose high and see what he gives me. If he takes the shot and turns in his overshoot to my 6 I also roll back right nose up looking to roll down onto him. If he saddles up I make sure he is close and fast then A) barrel roll to cause an overshoot or B) try a rolling scissors. Regardless of what happens I can stay fast and flick over to dive out if the plan goes sideways. If I am at 300 ias I dont feel like I am in much danger against the spit. Every move is agressive looking to reverse keeping the "escape hatch" in plain sight

(edited because I got my left and right confused......again)

Kodiak III./JG54

ccasey posted 02-10-99 12:02 AM ET (US)            

What would I do?

Ok, well if you are like me and completely suck at the 190 (I can fly the 109 ok though) and the P51D, then I would take my hand off my stick wait untill he starts firing then hit the enter key three times so my burning wreak hits the ground before me. So did I pass?

<=ccasey=>

Red Radiers

Strike/Escort

lazs posted 02-10-99 11:28 AM ET (US)            

My observations of flying the FW190A is that I am terrible in one. I can't hit a damn thing with cannons, and

I am so used to turn fighting that I get impatient and dead.

popeye

LOL pop, I know what you mean.. a really boring plane to fly. On the flip side, there is allmost no other plane I would rather SEE than a FW when I'm in a Hog. The FW has great roll and acceleration... Never bounce one with more speed than you need and you will be just fine. There is no legit move that the FW can do to escape if you are carefull (warps don't count, intentional or not). With an ammo barge like the Hog you can sit back a ways and ping him to death, spray where he WILL be. The real advantages to the FW are WB artificial ones... The six view and the bizare notion that the FW was a durable plane on a par with a Grumman or a Vought, especially the glass jawed D9! Being able to see behind you allows you to make informed decisions, LW flip flop or flat out run for friendlies. Good durability allows you to shake off a lot of hits and still make it home... Something real FW's rarely if ever did. Still... I like em. They taste like chicken. Wonder why that is?

lazs

DGSBDY posted 02-10-99 11:33 AM ET (US)            

OK I havent really read everyone elses, but here goes:

HE's comin in from 7 oclk , Mebbe im watchin his icon to judge his closure and get some idea if he's building up a head of steam or throttling back to float down on my 6. If he's fast I'm goin for the over shoot, and from 7 oclk so Im goin left to increase the overshoot, Im very low speed so I think I opt for a nose low snap to the left,and as I come out of it almost to wings level but not quite I want him canopy to canopy lookin at him hopefuly whizz by in my vertical view as he strains with his feet up on the dash to pull that stick back! Hopefully since Im nose low I havent lost any speed and he should be crossing so just pull the triggers in front of him and let him fly thru. Another move would be to hold a right-bank (but no turn) watch him and when you cant stand it anymore wait one more nanosecond and shove the nose down to unload. This will keep your canopy towards him and keep him in view. Hopefully he's wet his pants with excitement as he thinks your gonna turn in front of him and may even attempt a right roll to track which will make the neg G move even more effective. You just want to disappear under that Merlin.

If I'm feelin cocky and he makes it past and goes up in gun range (which these days is astronomical) I will go up with him mebbe even drop 1 notch flaps for a last gasp chance at a ping (in an A4 yes, A8 no). I know dumb move but I can usually run vertically down afterwards and use the roll to lose even spit9's as he'll eventually compress and I'll just roll opposite way and out(of course this takes alt).Of course all this is nullified if Jester or Drex is in the spit, in which case I would place head between legs and kiss my 6 goodbye .

funked posted 02-10-99 11:53 AM ET (US)            

Lazs:

Yer nuts you flag wavin' maniac! F4U and Fw 190 have nearly identical capabilities in WB. The only major difference is the 6-view (which I agree with you on), and I don't see how the small turning advantage of the F4U makes it that much less "boring". They both take great patience to kill in until you get really good and can get away with things you shouldn't be able to do.

Face it you like the F4U better because: 1) It's blue. 2) You're experienced enough in the type to have success without resorting to boring (i.e. patient) flying. 3) I think you watched too much Baa Baa Black Sheep.

I like the 190 better because I can see out the back! That's it.

I'm almost as deadly in the F4U, but I get tired of being killed by unseen cons all the time. Now that's BORING!

As far as real-life advantages, I don't know squat. They both had great records when employed in theatres where anything close to numerical parity existed. As far as hard-to-measure things like durability and reliability, I don't put much trust in anectdotal evidence which all comes from one side of the pond.

I'm right and you know it!

funkhead

DGSBDY posted 02-10-99 11:55 AM ET (US)            

Some more baloney to throw in:

A4 = slow , Spit9 = fast: You will be able to outturn him initially if he stays horizontal. Is this one of the "rules" of which you speak Drex, FW"S Cant outturn spits? (oh yes they can at times)

fd ski posted 02-10-99 01:05 PM ET (US)            

Let me give a Spit-driver perpective:

With spit 9 diving on 190 you have a one good shoot at it. If you overshoot and have to go vertical, next run will be a painful 6 chase, and a long one at that.

I would rather give up the energy adventage for angels if fighting in that situation ( assuming no other cons in area ).

If i'm diving on 190 i will always chop the throttle, keep it fast enough for closing, but not to overshoot. When he goes into "roll and scissor like a maniac mode", i'll stay a touch above and behind, remaining in position of control and keeping little E adventage.

At this point most 190 drivers will panic. They see that there will be no overshot, their E is low, and i'm still at adventage. This is where most of them becomes predictable, extended turns, that sort of thing....

Good 1 second burst, and it's all over....

I will never attempt that in a full arena, or if there are other cons in vinicity. In MA i usually let 190's go, they're too much trouble in groups...

Bartlomiej Rajewski

S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF

GunJam posted 02-10-99 01:13 PM ET (US)            

The Overshoot!

Sometimes the driver behind you is smart enough to pull back and wait. He wont Overshoot you but hang behind you ..

Now this is the time you need to roll & pull, reverse the action.... your speed will go down but because of your faster roll rate your able to pull tighter S's the spit and 38 driver will have to overshoot... at this time you only get one shot to kill them.

It works, Kronos works this well , I saw him using this on me... But being me.. I feel I can fly the Stall horn of the FW better than anyone. In this situation, Im usually right off the deck, and it's my last option. But I do love it when the other plane hits the drink..

wulfer posted 02-10-99 02:36 PM ET (US)            

From reading the numbers compiled by Cuff, I see a strange thing.

Why is the 190A4 a better plane than the A8? In the few areas where the A8 does have better numbers, it is close. Only the A8's guns are significantly better than the 1.5 year older A4.

I don't doubt the numbers, and I don't doubt IMOL's modeling, but why would the Germans make a later version lesser than the earlier version?

Overall, the A4 ranks 8th to the A8s 14th. Perhaps I should fly the A4 even when the A8 is available in the RPS?

------------------

wulfer

Bino posted 02-10-99 03:55 PM ET (US)            

Raml, if I can get him to commit downward while he's still very fast and I'm not, I may try a defensive spiral, going down. If I pull lots of G in the spiral, I won't accelerate much, but the slick Spit will retain a lot of his speed, despite pulling Gs. Ideally, I'll get a snapshot on him as he goes out in front (beneath) me.

Wulfer, it all depends on how you define "better". IMHO, the FW-190A-8 was the better bomber killer, as it had both heavier guns and armor than the FW-190A-4.

bino-- <II./JG54> bino.warbirds.org

funked posted 02-10-99 04:42 PM ET (US)            

Wulfer:

A-8 had a heavier weapons system and more armor as noted by Bino.

Also between A-4 and A-8 the plane had been lengthened and strengthened to take the new armament.

The result was an already overweight plane got even heavier, and the wings didn't get any bigger. Fortunately the A-8 had water-methanol (MW-50 injection), with max power of something like 2800hp. So the wingloading is terrible, you can't even out-turn a P-47. But it's still pretty fast in a straight line.

Tripit posted 02-10-99 05:26 PM ET (US)            

Drex - I would begin a slight turn to the left, to set up for a reversal while making him think I'm too slow. As he comes in close, I would pull it tighter and turn hard, up and over. Forcing an over shoot. Hopefully at that point I would have a nice six shot as he pops up in my gunsight.

As far as the 190 being an easy plane. It isn't exactly easy,(just ask any newbie after he's augered it for the 10th time) but if flown right it's very effective. The spit is easier because you can just hop in and go. It's forgiving but it's just as effective if not more, in my opinion, because it can BnZ as well as Tnz. Try the spit as a BnZ and it's damn effective. I've killed just as easily in both planes. Too bad I can't get as many kills with the 109

worr posted 02-10-99 05:53 PM ET (US)            

Gunjam wrote:

Sometimes the driver behind you is smart enough to pull back and wait. He wont Overshoot you but hang behind you ..

Now this is the time you need to roll & pull, reverse the action.... your speed will go down but because of your faster roll rate your able to pull tighter S's the spit and 38 driver will have to overshoot... at this time you only get one shot to kill them.

Though I only have it in my mind, I still have this on film in my memory. I've had my times with you in this same set up and that's exactly what you were doing.

I've seen you do this one shot deal and much to the chagrine of the one who figured you were in the bag!

Worr, out

hitz posted 02-10-99 06:21 PM ET (US)            

Solution to Drex scenario is to just do any violent maneuver and Maneuver Warp.

This must be the answer as its the normally procedure in the main with any plane!

lazs posted 02-10-99 07:44 PM ET (US)            

I'm right and you know it!

funkhead

Well, your not right but your close <G>. If I were a little more secure in my masculinity I wouldn't have to fly the manly blue planes.. I would get in touch with my feminine side and fly the sissy FW. BTW, they really were pretty fragile planes when compared to the manly blue ac. Lota unprotected complex junk packed into a small package.

lazs

Morzy posted 02-10-99 10:18 PM ET (US)            

Fd-ski wrote:

I will never attempt that in a full arena, or if there are other cons in vinicity. In MA i usually let 190's go, they're too much trouble in groups...

Muhahaha...I warned you to avoid JG14 <EG>

Dekker...

EASILY get 7-8 kill sorties????

Sheesh only if ur name is wulfie