DocDoom posted 12-22-98 04:15 AM ET (US)        

Well, you could try and shoot down a Lockheed Hudson carrying a good and gutsy top gunner with 4 or 5 A6M2 Zeros ... oops, that's another story ;]

It isn't really hard once you stop insisting to yourself that you can just come in behind it at good closure and simply whack it until it blows up. Sometimes, when you are exceeedingly accurate (and have nerves of steel) and flying a P-39/lotsa20sor30's/P-47 ... yes, this can happen. If you're *really* good or more likely just LUCKY (rather be lucky than good anyday) you can nail the tail gunner, in which case a rear approach would suddenly become the BEST approach, if high enough to avoid the ball gunner.

Human gunners will be hard to beat. They just don't generally have any "programmed" response to iniate a firing solution. They can call it on any and all basis's presented by the attacking fighter. But OTTO can be fooled rather easily if you know what kind of shot he is looking to defeat.

Like a curve ball that seeks to slide by the batter while they are busy with convincing themselves the ball is going to be where they are swinging their bat ... you only have to offer OTTO a flightpath you do not intend to fly *exactly* as it looks like you will from OTTO's perspective.

Neg-G unloading from an initially sight too high position (boresight ahead of your target) ... excess lead pursuit ... you can get a few good seconds of fire on your target as long as you learn to be accurate. OTTO will shoot over your head by quite a margin for those several seconds as he anticipates your aircraft remaining LOADED and in pos-G.

Then, roll 180 degrees (or less, or more) and load the airframe a little. Stop the roll and unload again. A few more seconds before you must roll once again, out of the pass and extend in the direction you were previously unloading out of. Shallow arc from nose down to level to really shallow climb. Move away as fast as you can, curving out away from the buff before curving back into a parrallel path some d17 away. Climb ahead of the buff to about d40+ and 3k above it.

Reverse quickly, but try to bleed as little speed as possible. A wide turn puts you in the ideal spot off to the side a little ... you make a dive nose down, slightly below the nose of the buff, and accelerate.

As you close to d24, the buff will do a little "creep warp" where it jumps to d21 or d22 ... I don't know why exactly, something to do with a hand-off from long range sample rate (your update packets) to a faster short-range one ... but in any event all head on approaches will see the phenomina every time.

Be ready for it.

In a headon guns pass this is where you pull the nose down into a slight "dip" at the buff ... and pull the trigger with tracer running out and about a bombers length in front of it. This will be about d18 by now, and you just feed the line of tracer out and watch the bomber gobble it up like Homer Simpson eating M&M's in zero G.

Usually, if you do it right, this will see shells arriving in the enemies cockpit, and as there is no armour here at all, and the pilot is there too, this will get pilot kills and the bomber goes boom.

Sometimes, you get front OTTO and top as well ... I can recall one B-17 pilot hailing me on private to tell his tale of woe as he drifted down in his parachute. Tail OTTO dies first, and the inside left engine. Left aileron went fluttering away also in that 1st pass. The 2nd pass took front and top OTTO as my 20mm shells walked along the fuselage from front to rear. Somehow, to the pilots amazement, I missed him and his bird was still flying on 3 engines. With only ball and waist OTTO left to defend it.

Normally, a 3rd pass that takes any time at all to complete is what kills a fighter. Even the really heavy hitters have trouble here unless the bomber dies very quickly. With little defensive fire to speak of, and thus no pings going off on my aircraft, I could take my time (assuming that OTTO was dead in many places, and not that guns were toggled off to spoof me...)

So I methodically walked my guns from wing to wing, taking out all the engines 1 by 1. The poor pilot could do nothing, except watch the lengthening list of damage messages as I took his plane apart piece by piece in small bursts at almost zero closure. When the plane was nose down with no elevator, he bailed and told me all about it ;]

I remember it because it was one of the funniest moments in WB, those moments we all have that remain priceless, not because it happens all the time, but because it happens so rarely, but rare or not, is still completely possible at any time.

And that bomber pilot told the story so well ;]

Back to the attack styles. You have rear from the beam position, taking a med-G arc pursuit curve from leading deflection back to zero deflection and pass behind from one side to the other. Preferably fast and rolling on extension as OTTO often survives these, but they can do great damage as you can walk a lot of shells along that arc and into the target.

Climbing low 6 kills are dead easy against early war B-25C's with no ball gunner or tail OTTO.

Headon kills of Ju-88's can be easy if you can get the position, which is not easy as they ARE fast in the early years. The glasshouse cockpit offers zero pilot protection, and they have futile defensive guns with the exception of the 13mm rear top position.

I support OTTO being in the game, as 1, 2 or 3 ship formations would be impossible given the behaviour of the large number of fighter pilots that populate the arena they must try and survive in. Big formations with human gunners and escorts are not an MA choice most of the time, because of gamers habits AND technical issues. 10 B-17s with human gunners woukd require 60 players logged in, which is half to 1/3rd of the total arena population at many peak times. Off peak, it's even more impossible.

I also support OTTO stopping defense when the plane is at "bail out we have no wings" stage ... or in high-G manoeuvres (which he may already do) and the "recovery" period from such manoeuvres may profit from examination ... I can't really say but I'm not against the finding out how good or bad he is in these situations.

As always, if you have an historically based scenario or special event where crewing buffs and massing them in formations is part of the make-up of the event, and fighters attacking them are also behaving historically, then you have an ideal situation to try for as historical a modelling of fighters vs bomber as you can muster, with human gunners aboard. I know if I attacked a multi-ship formation with lots of human gunners on board, I'm going to die much faster than if they all relied on OTTO.

I just don't think you will create a workable bomber presence in the MA going for this enforced style of play ... you might think it's "better" in your opinion, but I think it would make bombers a very unlikely choice by most of the people who might otherwise fly them, and the Main Arena isn't exactly over-run with buffs as things stand right now.

"Proper strat will bring them back" could be what we might hear here ... but the basic thing with the MA game is just not making 1, 2 or 3 ship formations without escort the sitting ducks they almost certainly would have been, if in real life they had to fly through an MA like, vampire riddled, kamikaze strewn enviroment of endless number which the MA often is, or can become at any minute.

There, I'm done now, I think ;]

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

HAMFST posted 12-22-98 07:53 AM ET (US)            

Hell, took out a B-17G one day in a Zeke 3 without taking a single ping. Thought it was skill, but now I realize it was because I can't fly a straight line... They don't call me HAMFIST for nothing

------------------

HAMFIST

Flying Squirrels' designated dragger

You can always tell a fighter pilot, you just can't tell him much...

lazs posted 12-22-98 08:33 AM ET (US)            

Ok guys here's the short version of how to kill a buff with little or no danger to yourself. Weave gently back and forth from about d5 back from the "bus-o-robots".

Yeah, yeah, "it's gaming the game". "It's not historical". Well.... whats not "gaming the game" about our current buffs? For that matter what aboiut em is "historical".

The down side to my method is of course that it takes a while to kill one and they will no doubt be over your field and dropping by then. Also, of course... it bores you witless. Sheesh.... Feel like I'm giving out the cheat codes for quake or something.

lazs

Bloo posted 12-22-98 08:47 AM ET (US)            

You lost me with

"Neg-G unloading from an initially sight too high position (boresight ahead of your target) ... excess lead pursuit ... you can get a few good seconds of fire on your target as long as you learn to be accurate. OTTO will shoot over your head by quite a margin for those several seconds as he anticipates your aircraft remaining LOADED and in pos-G."

But I understand the rest.

However, my perspective is from the inside of the buff. Got to say I love those flat 6 approaches. I'll always hop into the tail gun when someone tries this. And can usually kill or criple the incoming fighter before he reaches d6 in my FE, often much before.

But Doc, after that great post, I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts from the buffs perspectives. Other than tight formations. 1 on 1, B17 vs. 190.

Bloo

mw posted 12-22-98 11:58 AM ET (US)            

Well that sure is alot of talking for something that seems pretty basic and simple for me and alot of others. I don't hunt buffs but if I come across one and I'm in a spitter, I'll take them on if I have at least 1 to 2k alt advantage and boom in from their hi 4 or 8 o'clock. I don't like to be less than 350 mph and will open up aroung d 8 and just hammer them till i hit d2 then roll away and pull down trying to protect my head from a pilot kill. Sometimes I'll go for a wingtip but the last few times I just aimed where the wings and fuselage meet, x marks the spot. I thought maybe you were referring to passes on multiple buffs, which I'v not done, but you do seem to use the singular thoughout. What's the big deal? Hell a spitter can take a B17 with half his ammo load and survive every time. <shrug> Do you have to make more than one pass in that 190 of yours? LOL! hehe I'm in a spitter and never take more than one pass.

mw

DocDoom posted 12-22-98 12:42 PM ET (US)            

quote:

Bloo : You lost me with

"Neg-G unloading from an initially sight too high position (boresight ahead of your target) ... excess lead pursuit ... you can get a few good seconds of fire on your target as long as you learn to be accurate. OTTO will shoot over your head by quite a margin for those several seconds as he anticipates your aircraft remaining LOADED and in pos-G."

Because you are "floating" and drifting slightly the wrong way (for OTTO who is firing where you would be if holding 1 or more POSITIVE G) he misses you. If you had your gunsight slightly off target (generally, if upright, this would be above the target) then when you unload, it will be "on target". Any tidier ? ;]

quote:

Lazs : Feel like I'm giving out the cheat codes for quake or something.

Why ? If these attack methods are incorrect, or in some way "not fair" ... the only way to get them addressed as PROBLEMS needing fixing is to expose them. That's why we post here isn't it ? ;]

I fail to see the "cheat code" element in what I posted though.

And for MW. The single fighter vs B-17 comments you offered us. Well, that posting of mine was specifically about 3 ship formations (occassionally smart 2 ship formations that can *act* like 3 or more ;] since they would be considered by those who maintain that 1 ship formations are too hard, as "next to impossible" I guess ;]

Sure, I bore in with an Fw190A-8 from dead six, if I'm REAL acurate and don't mind losing an engine, I can nail a single ship every time. If I weave/roll/jink a little, I may not even lose the engine... BUT THE POINT I WAS MAKING was how to do it taking NO PINGS (or very very few) and against supposedly difficult odds where our so-called "super OTTO" can nail you but good every time, like multiple ship formations(of B-17s).

What would the point of posting "bore in with Fw190A-8 and hose it down vs a single B-17" have acheived ? Brevity, yes, but not a lot else ;]

I always fly like I could really be killed. At least, except for those rare times that I can't be bothered and all around me are playing "aerial quake" ... as such, the less damage my plane sustains as a direct result of how I fly it, the better for MY gaming desires. This makes me somewhat more prudent than most, even when attacking a single B-17.

So, tell me folks, are we dumbing down OTTO again because he's "ahistorical" ? Because if you are, say goodbye to hvy bombers in numbers greater that "I'm new here and thought I'd bomb something" in the Main Arena ... face reality ... those guys who want to fly them RIGHT NOW have much less chance than their historical counterparts did (they lost what, 5% of all bombers flown in combat ?) and yet you desire to make their job HARDER because it's HISTORICAL ?

Sounds to me like you just want easy buff kills. Well, IT ISN'T HARD NOW. What are the losses for the average buffer ? 95% ?

I am not talking about replicating historical reality because we can't have 10 (plus) ship formations escorted everywhere as a rule, for reasons stated elsewhere.

Do we understand we're I'm coming from now ? This isn't rocket science you know ;]

(actually, maybe it is ;]

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

Spitboy posted 12-22-98 01:16 PM ET (US)            

quote:

Sounds to me like you just want easy buff kills. Well, IT ISN'T HARD NOW.

I'm with ya Doc. I'm not too keen on unloading, loading and all that technical hoopla, but your clarification helped. That's exactly what I do, and tried to explain a while back in a post on this topic.

A single buff is meat. I usually fly the Spit 5, throughout the plane set. And I can knock down a B17 with no problem, usually on one pass with hardly a ping in return. You just gotta keep your plane of flight unpredictable for Otto, who's trained to simply "determine where plane is headed and put bullets in that spot."

Spitboy -SW- (sb-sw-)

Fryorb posted 12-22-98 01:41 PM ET (US)            

The short, short version...

get an alt advantage, and dive in firing all your guns at one engine or wing until it is blows up or falls off(this should work I have only done it off-line). A P-39 or Me-262 work well for this, along with any other heavily armed planes.

OK, so it wasnt all that short...

Gums posted 12-22-98 02:08 PM ET (US)         

Salute!

Well, as a frequent Doc Doom tgt, we 305th buff pukes can certainly agree that a skilled lite can ruin our whole day (as well as negating the 2 bucks we spent just getting to the tgt area!).

Most of we buffers agree that otto should be disabled after we bail as well as when we are pulling over a gee and a half or some reasonable number.

Anyone who has trouble with otto on a 1 v 1 setup needs more practice! Boring in on a 4-ship is another story. Any lite wishing to take on a 4-ship of B-17G's by him/herself must be willing to look at it as a learning experience unless very competent (like Doc Doom, Wulfie and a host of Pigs, JG14 troops, etc.)

Only aspect of otto that we buffers seem to agree with lite folks on is the ability to be airborne ack. Please note that most buff outfits in this sim do not approve of, condone or intentionally use otto except as 'defense'.

Lastly, the day the buffs are driven out of the sim due to whining by incompetent lites will be a sad one. Our unit and other serious buff outfits realize that an unrealistic otto is the price to be paid by the lites until we can get 50 or 60 plane formations of buffs and the crazy folks like us that will pay a buck grabbin altitude before dropping a single bomb (not to mention having to launch from one or two specific fields and spending another buck to get back where we were shot down). Buff missions are neat for those wishing comraderie, cooperation, good formation flying and satisfaction from having executed a well-conceived plan (as opposed to pinball wizards that simply want to see other folks blow up!).

Any lite pilot wanting to see what the serious buff outfits think is fun need only contact the 305th, Red Raiders, 925th CABS, Haze, 4th FG, Hell's Aces, 901st, etc. and ask to fly on a planned mission. Scenarios are another way to see what it's like. We flew quite a few newbies in Pt Blank who wanted to see what it was like - ask them what they thought of it.

respectfully,

Gums **305th BG(H)**

BadMan 4thFG posted 12-22-98 04:28 PM ET (US)            

Gee Doc, I luv ya, I luv your pix. But for gods sake, the sakai.gif was 260kb. could ya watch that next time? Some of us are 28.8 ya know.

bubba Lt Col Red Raiders posted 12-22-98 07:40 PM ET (US)            

> IT ISN'T HARD NOW

Entirely correct, Doc.

On squad night we usually go in with 12-15 buffs in tight (D1) formation; by the time we've dropped, extended and dropped again usually a few of us are down. Rarely do more than three or four of us manage to land.

And this is with the "uber-otto" that so many would-be buff killers complain about.

Magnus posted 12-22-98 10:19 PM ET (US)            

The BEST way to kill a buff is fly about 1000 ft in front of the buff and 1000ft above it. Then take a bottle of Doc Dooms MG151 FLAKPANZER MOTOR OIL and toss it to the pilot of the buff. When he catches it and takes just 1 or 2 shots of the stuff, he will be so drunk he will not know which way is up and proceed to fly his AC into the nearest mountain! SAVE YOUR AMMO, USE MG151 FLAKPANZER OIL INSTEAD!

ROFL!

Magnus

DocDoom posted 12-23-98 03:03 AM ET (US)            

quote:

MAGNUS: SAVE YOUR AMMO, USE MG151 FLAKPANZER OIL INSTEAD!

Heh heh, would work a charm, I'm sure ;]

Zombie makes that FlakPanzerOil gear, and it *IS* wicked stuff. My brew was MG151 GunBarrelOil. Much smoother type of lubricant ... you don't need to be drunk or stupid or in a coma to swallow it. Being all three is at least guarrenteed to be your future if you *DO* partake of its charms, however ;]

Nice to see you remember the experience

Doc.

Shdo posted 12-23-98 06:52 PM ET (US)            

GUMS Said

Most of we buffers agree that otto should be disabled after we bail as well as when we are pulling over a gee and a half or some reasonable number.

just to clarify - unless HOOF has changed this and has not told us then: OTTO does not fire at 1.5G's and above this was true before and it is still true. You can setup a demonstation of this. Take you and a friend, go to the P/D arena and be different colors. Have one of you above the other and then turn OTTO on - have the buff do a heavy pullup and watch the G meter and watch when OTTO stops firing and then When it starts again and how long it takes to recover.

OTTO, also, no longer does instantanious tracking - that was something modified when HOOF made the changes to the code after 2.0.

We demand hard numbers for fighter data, why not gather that data on OTTO before getting your nickers in a twist folks.

shdo

P.S. niether does OTTO fire on the ground nor can human gunners fire the guns while on the ground. I know, I tried the other nite when mu Ju52 took a ping and I had to land before I could drop troops and the Gold Spits launched befor the troops captured the field. Not to say dgoose still would not have killed me but it would have been nice to do something.