Konrad posted 03-26-99 10:45 PM            

Today I flew with my squad in the scenario lite. We numbified most of the escort, and decided to go after 2 damaged B-17s that were heading back to England.

I came in to the hi port side of the 2 plane formation, maybe D20 away. I was planning on going for a ho shot, but I saw another fighter attacking the buffs and I thought I'd have a better chance against otto if it were split up between two planes. So I then turned towards the buffs, and went for a 550km shot 45 degrees off the tail off the back B-17. I fired a few second burst from D8 and dove slightly by D5 to get away from otto.

Instead of me getting away like I should have at 550 km, I lost the following before I managed to bail:

port wing

right landing gear

left landing gear

top gun disabled

engine killed

vertical stab

horizontal stab (i think)

So is there any way of attacking a buff other than ho?

P.S. The otto of that same pilot also killed atleast 4 other LW planes.

Konrad

Jg77

GunJam posted 03-27-99 03:57 AM            

Hmm, I noticed in MA Buffs were harder to down, than the usual for an FW190A-8.

But Maybe that is the ANSWER to scenarioes!!

only 8 B17's or such and make it Hell for a plane to kill it... So we can have more fighters, < I hope I dont offend and mud movers> That way the Mud mover guys have a better chance abd the attackers know that one pass Is not gunna do it so they set up smarter, and take out pieces...

Just a thought!

Val_DoD posted 03-27-99 04:14 AM            

According to your description you would of had at the most, 5 .50cals firing at you at any given time.

1 waist (possible hand off to other waist, but most likely unable to depress after handoff.

2 top turret (handing off to ball as you pass)

2 tail (45* would be hard for the tail to track in real life, and with you overtaking on the slashing pass not likely to track and pick up on egress.)

There is no better proof that the otto guns are overstrength than what you had happen to you. 5 flex mounted .50s should not have the concentrated punch of 6 or 8 mounted in wings at convergence. Further when has any .50 equiped AC stripped a plane of parts so easily and with so few pings, even at D2 with 0 closure, in WBs.

WBs is really 2 games, 1 with WWII A/C mixing it up, and another with robot armed smart bomb equiped "Quake-Wagons" disguised to look like WWII bombers.

Personally I don't even try to take them on anymore. Real world tactics just don't work.

val

Scott (Val_DoD) Valline

kapsyl posted 03-27-99 09:05 AM            

My best buff attacks have been like this:

Go in from the buffs hi 6 gaining max speed and be careful to stay outside d10.

When directly under the buff or perhaps just a tad ahead if it,still at d10, pull up and let he guns loose at d8 and keep firing while pushing the stick forward to let the fire track the buff.

evade when you get uncomfortably close to the buff by doing a half roll and go straight down

If the buff is not going down you will hopefully have killed the belly gunner and the only gun that will bear on you is the rear gunner and he will have very few moments to shot at you b4 youre outside d10

this tactic also works well with a 2 buff formation but ofcourse it gets a lot more dangerous.

if more than 2 buffs forget it, if you want to survive the HO is the only thing

Kapsyl "The Haze"

DingerX posted 03-27-99 09:25 AM            

There is no better proof that the otto guns are overstrength than what you had happen to you. 5 flex mounted .50s should not have the concentrated punch of 6 or 8 mounted in wings at convergence.

I wasn't there, I wish I had been though. With all deference, intuitively, it seems that flex mounted .50 cals on a level platform would be easier to bring on target than those contained in the wings of a high performance fighter.

The case under consideration is not a valid example of Ueber-Otto, since, to judge from the CM's write up, only two of the fighters dispatched by that particular 17 were otto kills. Frankly, I think Afrosu owes us an explanation -- nay, a speech -- for how he managed to disassemble the other twelve.

Geezer posted 03-27-99 09:32 AM            

Personally I don't even try to take them on anymore. Real world tactics just don't work.

val

Hmm, IIRC I got a call last week from my squadie in a red B17 about a "pesky green zeke" that had spoiled his first run over F4. I figured any zeke pilot at 20k+ attacking a 17 and surviving had to be good, ballsy, wacked out or all of the above. I only found one green zeke in the area Val, you hehe.

GunsGG posted 03-27-99 10:17 AM            

Maybe it's because I've flown them for so long, but I have absolutely no trouble bringing them down.

I shot down two buffs a couple of weeks ago in my P40e sustained only a couple minor pings myself, and only rtb'd because I had about 10% ammo left.

I attack from a high position only, using a slashing manuver to throw off return fire. Do NOT maintain a straight line of flight inside of d10 for longer than a second! Concentrate your fire on either the cockpit or a wing root, and break off the instant you see return fire coming your way. Use at least a 1.5 G manuver to climb to a safe distance. Rinse. Repeat.

Incidentally, although I got some good pings, I used this tactic against a massive red formation(you know who ), diving broadside through the entire formation, but was shot down by an escort as I was setting up for a second pass. Just remember otto only shoots where you ARE and can't predict manuvers. Just watch out for human gunners, they are a hundred times worse

GunsGG

450th (cottontails) BG(H)

lazs posted 03-27-99 10:21 AM            

Your mistake is treating the robots like you would a human player. Any tactic that will kill a human gunner or buff will get you shredded. Pretend that you are in a very simple boxed game when you run into a buff. Game the robots by weaving gently back and forth at d5-6 on the AI's ded 6. You will be able to fire on the buff untill it takes enough damage to "blow". There, now, isn't that realistic?

lazs

GunsGG posted 03-27-99 10:44 AM            

Game the robots by weaving gently back and forth at d5-6 on the AI's ded 6.

Sorry Laz, but I've got to disagree. If a fighter gets on my dead six, I will man the tail gun myself and shoot him down in a couple seconds. The slashing attack is the only attack that really frightens me when I'm in a fort. The Warbirds B17 is really a paper airplane if you land a couple good burst on it. Most dead six attacks I have faced, I see the tracers stream all around me but very few hit(with some exceptions...I think Deft has shot me down and his fire never wavered..hehe). Most Warbird pilots can not land enough rounds on a fort from that position to make them a serious threat...BTW, I still encounter those silly souls trying to CLIMB up my six, just hanging there with about a ten mile an hour closing speed...I shoot them down then they get on 100 and blame otto! Sheeesh!

GunsGG

450th (cottontails) BG(H)

BB Gun posted 03-27-99 01:17 PM            

Listen to GunsGG. I use the same tactics, except use the F-4U, P-51D or P-38J/L. Get hi rear quarter, at about d15-d18 dive into target so you are going about 400 when you reach guns range of d8 or so, lay in the fire on the tail or wing, don't spray it around, and if it doesn't fall off by d2, break low/roll away at speed, climb, repeat. Never takes more than two passes, usually only takes one. And you can't rush the second pass. Usually I get killed when I am in a hurry and try the return too early and am only going about 300-350 at the break. Sure otto kill there.

Brendan "BB Gun" Bayne

Val_DoD posted 03-27-99 03:13 PM            

About attacking that BUFF in my Zeke:

Yes, it was me, and yes I qualify for a sanitarium. Here's what happened.

As you all know the Zeke is one of the slowest AC in the game in general. There I was tooling along at 20K plus, and I think I had just tangled with a Spit or 2. (At 20K fights last longer, because the guys up there tend to be smarter, except for me of course hehehehe).

To make a long story short I picked up that B-17 at D12 and closing. At that Alt I couldn't outrun him or pull away fast enough to avoid "Otto". I was in a decent frontal area attack position, so I fugured "what the hell". I made one slashing pass, and I was rolling and juking so much I doubt I got many pings on target. After that and my diving evasive he sped away, and a Spit came back into that area. I think the Spit was you geezer, and you wacked me hehehehehehe.

Thnx for the kind words though!!!!!!

<S>

val

Scott (Val_DoD) Valline

tmac posted 03-28-99 07:30 PM            

Konrad,

I'm a buffer for the most part so I don't get to down buffs very often. But I do know that like many things in Warbirds it simply takes practice. Follow some of the advice from the pilots that don't have a tough time telling you that they can down a buff almost evertime if they use a certain tactic. It will probably take you a little time to perfect it but it will be worth it if you want to down buffs regularly.

Being a buffer myself and schooled in many effective evade techniques I can tell you that if the pilot knows what he is doing he can down a buff everytime. Often I think it's to easy for people to say oh otto is to tough and unrealistic instead of doing the work.

Val the fact that you could kill a buff in a paperthin zeke (even if it isn't everyday you do this) should tell you that the otto model is at best fairly balanced and worst unbalanced toward fighters. I reckon it's at the fairest balance at the moment that it can be. May not be totally reasistic but how can you have full realism until you make the ottos be manned by real people and how can you do that until you make it plausible. Making it plausible would be perhaps making joining a buff in flight as a gunner possible. As of now very few people are willing to fly the whole way to be a gunner. We all know this. Most of us agree. I just hate passing comments such "I have just given up on the buffs because they are not realistic", as if we have some kind of super plane that defies reality and makes us unbeatable. Not true. And I think most would agree.

Anyway just wanted to add these comments.

tmac out

Proud Member of the

925-CABS

Mors Ab Alto

Val_DoD posted 03-28-99 07:52 PM            

TMAC:

I didn't kill that buff. I made a pass, and ruined his bomb run.

As a policy I never intentionally attack Buffs. In Saburo Sakais book Samurai, he describes an attack on a B-17(most likely F model), by 7 zeros. They made repeated rear quarter slashing passes until they ran out of ammo. None of the zekes were damaged, and the B-17 flew home. That should say a lot about "Otto", and the hardness of buffs in our game.

val

Scott (Val_DoD) Valline

Val_DoD posted 03-28-99 10:07 PM            

I stand corrected.

Your right SHDO:

I rechecked and it must have been a D or E model. (though the text doesn't say)

The most interesting thing is that The IJN pilots held no fear of the B-17, or it's gunners. Sakai comments several times about the IJN pilots frustration over not being able to down a 17 with several fighters expending all their ammo into them.

They were also impressed with its speed, and had B-17s outrun them on occasion.

val

Scott (Val_DoD) Valline

lazs posted 03-29-99 08:21 AM            

Gunns said...

Sorry Laz, but I've got to disagree. If a fighter gets on my dead six, I will man the tail gun myself and shoot him down in a couple seconds.

Hmm, are you saying that weaving gently back and forth will not game the robots or are you saying that it won't fool a human gunner and that it's no problem for humans to man the guns?

I agree in the later case but... When I see a buff stop flopping around in the sky like a stick stirring Spit, I assume that the pilot has actually manned his guns.

One point has come out tho.. If human gunners (including the pilot) work so well... Why do the buffs need robots? If buffs flew historically (straight and level mostly) then the pilot would just be baggage for most of the flight and could do something usefull like man the guns.

lazs

O

DingerX posted 03-29-99 10:02 AM            

One point has come out tho.. If human gunners (including the pilot) work so well... Why do the buffs need robots?

If buffs flew historically (straight and level mostly) then the pilot would just be baggage for most of the flight and could do something usefull like man the guns.

lazs

Fortunately for us, we don't fly BUFFs or any other plane in WB historically, nor is it possible to do so. First, any computer-based simulation is going to present limitations in representing such a vastly different type of reality as aerial combat over 50 years ago. Somewhere, the simulation has to break down. Second, procedural manuals, films and first hand accounts might give us an idea of what happened, but are knowledge is not as precise , nor as univocal, as one might be led to believe. Finally, the participants, for however much they may envelope themselves in memorabilia and fancy squad titles, are not WWII combatants, and have an entirely different understanding of aerial combat than they did.

So, in the case of WB, there's a whole mess of problems in creating a conflict that largely surrounded bomb runs.

We can't get more than 32 planes in sight at once. Most of the time, it's hard to get a multiplane bomb strike underway, and seeing B17s in groups of more than two is hardly the norm. If it weren't for the fact that a single pilot could actually be a significant threat to ground targets (read == if not for the laser "nerden" bombsight), we'd have no bombers at all.

Second, that the common impression, or that some "historical" source, claimed that all bombers flew straight and level most of the time, doesn't mean that's what happened in every instance. We've had the "Non-maneuvering platform" theory challenge by others on these threads. History is an art, not a science.

In any case, we can agree that generally, when folks are being shot at, they'll do everything they can to cover their butt. In RL A B-17 pilot in a combat box would not have wanted to maneuver while under attack since A. it would mess up the defensive formation and B. he might collide with the other planes in his group.

Finally, a plane bristling with .50 cals just isn't that much of a threat to a virtual pilot. The inexperienced ones dive right in where greenhorns two generations ago woulda filled their flightsuits and dove away to what remained of their families below. The good ones, benefiting from countless sorties of practice against live targets (and many failed attempts), know exactly where and how to deconstruct a B-17, and they do so with an effectiveness few of their "historical" counterparts could ever claim to have had.

In short, when I see you comin' after my BUFF, I will try to stop you, using every legitimate means at my disposal -- the best of which being, as has been recently shown, human-operated guns; and when they prove insufficient (as they almost always are against good buff hunters), I will salute you as I hurdle earthwards.

Bugjam posted 03-29-99 10:04 AM            

I always attack a buff from very hi 4 or 8 o'clock. I dive steeply and pull some lo G's, open fire at d8-d7 and shoot until d2 and roll away. Attacking from almost on top of the buff has many assets:

1)Extremely large target = easy to hit.

2)lo G's fool otto gunners, they can hardly ping you.

3)attacking from VERY hi 8 or 4 o'clock, tail gunner can't track you, top gunner is easily disabled when attacking from top. that leaves only the waist gunner to shoot you. And you have a good chance to a pilot kill.

4)if I attack from 4 o'clock, it is easy to disengage to buff's hi 8-9 o'clock and pulling lo G's >>> otto can't hit you. And tail gunner can't track you until you're far enough.

Step 4 only if the buff isn't dead already

I have managed to down 2 B17's, a B25 , and 4 fighters during one sortie (and rtb) in 190D9. Killing a buff does not require 190A8 and a lot of luck, only good tactics

Bugjam

VMF-58 Wildcards Rogue Squadron

Bino posted 03-29-99 11:53 AM            

Lots of good points above. I would only add that an attack on a bomber's high 12 o'clock offers a fair chance at a pilot kill. Just don't let a B-25 draw a bead on you with those "cheek" guns or, heaven forfend, that 75mm!

bino-- <II./JG54> bino.warbirds.org