Posted by: suso

Message: Most people would probably consider P38s, FW190s and P51s the toughest antagonists for my Ki-84 on Warbirds, but frankly I am not that impressed by any of those three. Please understand me, I am still basically a dweeb with a kill/death ratio below 1.0; I am just trying to say that I don't find these planes any tougher than several others.

Apart from other Ki-84s, my greatest nemesis when I fly my Ki-84 is the Spitfire. They are like fast, durable Zeros, mosquitoes that are hard to swat, and pack a hell of a sting. I usually wind up attempting a snap shot or simply running for my life.

But I'd rather be more dangerous to them. Does anyone have any advice on tactics for a Ki-84 against Spits?

suso

Posted by: -lynx- (13th Sqn RAF)

Message: I used to fly Ki alot and this worked like magic: consider 2 scenarios - a clever Spit driver and a newbie. In both cases you (should) win :o)

Say, a Spit is on your six - drag him low, ~300 IAS, roll over, hit flaps and pull the stick - you should be able to complete the manouver safely (don't forget to pull the flaps back in when exiting!) while still doing ~300 IAS. A newbie will follow you and WILL hit the dirt (you win #1). Experienced pilot will not and you'll get a chance to use that advantage in acceleration and climbrate to extend and then b&z him to death (you win #2) You'll need alot of offline practice to find out the safe alt for it but worked every time:)

Experts will probably correct me here but I think Ki and Spit had different type of flaps - Ki's flaps helped turns and Spit's just slowed the plane down?

-lynx- (13th Sqn RAF)

Posted by: hoof

Message: : Experts will probably correct me here but I think Ki and Spit had different type of flaps - Ki's flaps helped turns and Spit's just slowed the plane down?

Basically true. The Ki84 uses what are called "butterfly" flaps, or manoever flaps, first seen on the Ki43 and used later in the war by most nations. These flaps are designed to be used at higher speeds and to provide some additional wing area and thus lift at minimal drag, allowing a high-speed efficient wing that can "transform" into a TnB optimized wing fairly effectively. In fact the Ki84's instantaneous turn from 250mph increases by about 20% with one notch of flaps (she loses a full second off her corner speed 180 degree turn time), and her sustained turn increases by about 12-15%.

The Spit's flaps are a split flap that come down something like 80 degrees into the airflow. They are designed for landing only, to allow the plane to fly at slow speeds, during landing, where excessive drag isn't usually a concern (and can be useful if coming in too fast). They do not help much in TnB because of the very high drag factor, so are usually only useful if the spit pilot wants to decrease turn radius at the expense of turn rate. The advantage of this is that the pilot doesn't need to worry about flaps when turning, while the Ki84 pilot has several extra ways to screw up (like TnBing with a good turner without dropping appropriate flaps first, or trying to run after TnBing and forgetting to pull those flaps in).

hoof

Posted by: bare

Message: : There is no plane that can master the Spit conclusively.

Yeager

Try the FM2 or F4F. I'm not successfull against a lot of planes but I do get 95+% success against spits. It can't be just luck and I'm definitely not an expert at dogfighting (u can check my .sco if u don't believe it)

I actually keeled more Spits with F4F than with FM2. (I think it has to do with the fact that most people don't take the F4F for a serious threat.)

bare

Posted by: hoof

Message: : : There is no plane that can master the Spit conclusively.

: Yeager,

try the FM2 or F4F. I'm not successfull against a lot of planes but I do get 95+% success against spits. It can't be just luckand I'm definitely not an expert at dogfighting (u can check my .sco if u don't believe it)

: I actually keeled more Spits with F4F than with FM2. (I think it has to do with the fact that most people don't take the F4F for a serious threat.)

Try the ki43 too. As long as you avoid the HO and the occasional snapshot, a Ki43 is quite good vs the spit, esp. if he's on the deck and can't dive away. It accelerates with the spit, climbs as well as the SpitV, outturns them both by a large margin, and is so much fun to kill em with :) Of course the Ki43 can't shrug off the occasional FW low probability snapshot like a FM2 can... :)

Had some of my best fights with ozzy and prop flying Spits and me in my Ki43 the other day...

hoof

Posted by: cmos

Message: Yeah,speaking as a Spit driver, its interesting ... the Ki ought to hold all the cards, since it can out-turn, out-accelerate, and out-climb the Spit 9.

But the advantage is not large, as Kats said, and getting all of the performance out of the Ki is harder than the Spit because to me at least, the Spit is easier to fly. The Spit is pretty forgiving, the Ki has a little tendency to tuck into a spin, and if you're going to TnB, you'd better manage those flaps well. So the chance of making a mistake in the Ki is larger.

If you make a mistake and the Spit doesn't, he'll ding you, and those 20 mm's hurt. The Ki is not a Zero, but seems a good deal more fragile than the Spit, so the Ki can take a lot fewer casual hits than the Spit can.

So, while you can TnB a Spit 9 (a V will eat your lunch), this is a dangerous proposition. I'd use the Ki's speed and climb ability to turn an equal-E situation into an E-advantaged situation by making high-speed passes and climbing turns. With luck he'll try to follow you up ... the higher he goes the better your E-advantage gets.

I've had good luck against Franks. However, occasionally I run into an expert, and then it's depressing ... like the 38L, you know that no matter what you do, he can make his plane do it better, and it's just a matter of time :(

Then I try to take the fight to a) friends; b) friendly ack c) the ground; and d) practice guns defense big time. Sometimes it works.

cmos

Posted by: wells

Message: The Ki is faster, but suffers around 10k. The spit gets much better with altitude. Try staying around 5k. This should give you enough alt to dive to maximum speed in case you have to. Once extended, you can climb back up. The Ki also has 10 minutes of continuous wep. Use this to your advantage...it really helps acceleration and climb rate. When turning, flaps are a must. Use 1/2 flaps for best turn rate. Full flaps slow you down too much and don't increase turn rate any further. Most spit's use level break turns. Don't try and lead this maneuver. Use a lag where you match turn rate but don't try and lead for a shot. If he reverses as if to scissor, you have a snap shot at which point you should go into a yo-yo or loop to prevent the overshoot. Roll when pointed straight up to line up the spit and then barrell down on him. You will not lose as much energy as he will. If the spit chooses looping or wing-over tactics, simply do the best you can to lag and match his maneuver exactly without pulling lead. You may be able to get the angles advantage by using flaps at top of wingover. Just remember to pull em back up for max acceleration in the dive.

wells

Posted by: hoof

Message: : . Full flaps slow you down too much and don't increase turn rate any further.

Actually the slowdown can be useful, and your turn rate improves to boot. The reason this is useful is because of turn radius. Assuming a smaller turn radius, if your circle is inside his, he will never be able to get his nose on you, even with a superior turn rate. SpitIX pilots know this all to well vs the smaller radii opponents. Of course, I assume that the larger radius opponent continues his flat level turn :)

The other big advantage to dropping your speed and radius vs a Spit is twofold. First, before you get to 110 or 105mph (sustained full flaps speed for a ki84), you get a "boost" to your turning ability (because dropping flaps lowers sustained turn speed, thus you can convert more speed into angles). In addition, having a smaller circle means you don't have to turn quite as much to get a high deflection angle tracking shots (Zeke drivers know all about this kind of situation :)

The reason this works so well vs Spits is that a Spit in best turn rate configuration has flaps in, and a SpitIX turns at about 150mph sustained, a SpitV about 135-140. This results in a rather large circle (and is one of the reasons why a P38 who drops flaps always gets the 1st shot vs either spit after a co-e post-merge reversal). Now a spit can drop his sustained speed by dumping flaps, but then his turn rate goes down. Kinda a catch-22 for the spit driver, even a SpitV, he suffers either a turn rate or a turn radius disadvantage no matter what he does.

Compound this with the fact the ki84's turn rate with E is significantly higher than the SpitV/IX especiall with a notch of flaps.

Thus even though in a drawn-out, flat-turn situation a SpitV or even a SpitIX will eventually get around onto a Ki84's six, with even a slight amount of E, a Ki84 can often get that crucial 1st tracking shot, which considering the Ki84's firepower and the Spit's durability, is often all she wrote.

hoof

Posted by: wells

Message: I personally would not opt for this approach. It denies me the ability to run or extend in a climb if needed. I agree that full flaps reduces radius and allows for low yo-yo's and such to deny the spit a shot and possibly give you a snap-shot, but I don't trust myself enough for that initial tracking shot..hehe I'd like to be able to run and extend or climb if needed, especially if I became outnumbered. I would hate to dump flaps for the initial shot, only to miss or not do the damage I thought I would...hehe Then I would be basically committed to this turn fight to the ground and to the death...probably mine..hehe Just a different style, I guess...For someone not as experienced as yourself in the type :) I would recommend using the aircraft's main strengths, being speed, acceleration and climb...and to stay on the slightly safer B&Z side of things.

wells

Posted by: hoof

Message: : I personally would not opt for this approach. [snip]...

Hehe and not a good idea too if the spit isn't alone :) That's what I love about the Ki84 it does so many things, if you want to beat that Spit at his own game (TnB), you can, at a price (you are now slow). Plus, with the SpitIX/V, since he goes around faster than U, if you start to lose and try to escape, he immediately has a 30mph or more speed advantage on you which can make for some hairy escapes.

When doing the dump flaps and tangle with the Spit routine, it helps to thoroughly convince yourself that he hasn't a chance first :) For some strange reason that helps you turn in TnB...

In general, especially if the spit is on the deck and engaging TnB puts me at risk to other nme in the area, or the spit is higher than about 5k (where the Ki starts to lose some of its edge), I'll usually stick to the BnZ and E tactics, but it's fun to be able tothrow caution to the wind and dive right in there and mix it up with the Spit :) 'Cause once you commit by dumping those flaps and cranking her around, there's no going back 'cause spit pilots usually aren't merciful if U try to leave :)

hoof

Posted by: Kats CO/JG27 (Jochen)

Message: I would agree with you that the spit, or a well flown 109k is a tough fight for a Ki84.

However, the Ki84 outclimbs, outturns, and is faster than the spit9. So basically assuming co-skill pilots, you should be able to do anything and beat the spit. However, these advantages are slight so 1 mistake and your dead. Therefore I would wait to have E advantage either by turning the spit to bring him co=E and extending to d10 and using the zoom/hammerhead tactic until you have enough E advantage to switch to an angles fight. Of course this is all easier said than done :))))))

Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'

Posted by: Farm

Message: Funny you should mention this, but my worst nightmare in my spit (fly it all the time), is the KI with an alt advantage. It seams to be able to turn with me but can out accelerate me. So if I was the KI driver, I would maintain an E advantage and keep B and Z ing me until Im ded (that's what a lot of KI drivers seam to do to me.)

I think I find the KI hard to deal with because it can turn quickly enough to take that shot as I break. My defense is to drag the KI into a turn fite, drop my flaps and get down and dirty. If I am in a V at this point, I feel I've pretty much won the fite unless the KI driver runs. If I am in an IX pilot skill starts to play an important part.

Now if I was in a KI and a Spit IX or V got the drop on me, I would run until I had at least a co-E situation. Then head back and attack.

If running is not an option, tighten the chute straps and try and keep that KI nose pointed at me. Then at least you get toshoot when I shoot (HO).

F/S Farm SIO, 401 Rams

Posted by: jedi

Message: Boom and zoom them. The Ki with an altitude advantage should be able to dictate the fight against the Spit. If you're not high enough to BnZ, run away, climb up, come back, and start at the beginning of this paragraph.

If you turnfight them, it's a crapshoot. If you turnfight them and don't use your flaps, it's a Frankshoot.

Of course you could just do headon shots at d10. That's the best tactic in WB anyway ;-)

--jedi