Wsty posted August 20, 1999 02:59 AM            

Keeping in mind the RPS:

f4f:

doesn't climb, doesn't accelerate, no 6 view, turns and dives okok, but not with the planes in it's time.

p47c: (tho I did ok in it tonight)

as above, but dives real good but burns E worst of all I think

109g:

what can you say, slow compared to rest, locks up, only advantage sems climb and good rudder

a6m2:

need other pilots to be real stupid

hurricanes:

as above, but real good guns in 2c

F16:

needs many patches to make it work right, not in RPS at all

Funny thing tho, no middle ground, if you meet people in these planes, they either really good, or really dismal.

Carrot posted August 20, 1999 06:45 AM            

Actually it depends on the defination of difficult.

Difficult to fly or difficult to kill in?

TBF

SBD

kate

val

Ju87g and D

the list goes on. the planes you have mentioned are difficult, but most of them only late in the RPS.

The 109g is pretty well agreed that there is a fault with the climb rate etc. It should be better than it is.

I'll take an A6M2 against an M5a any day. Its a better plane.

Hurricane? But it got more kills than the Spit in the Battle of Britain. And it was still being used at the end of the war.

F4F. Well be careful here. The FM2 is a fantastic little plane. And even the F4F is great in early war.

P47C. Some thunderbolt drivers are gonna jump all over you I think.

Carrot

RNZAF

"Due to circumstances beyond my control I shot someone down."

Bugjam posted August 20, 1999 07:38 AM            

P47C:

Great guns, great diver... but all after that I just don't get it. <S> to the P47 experts! Maybe it would do better in higher altitudes.

F4U:

A great plane, like it. But I find it a *very* unstable gunplatform, shooting is very difficult in it. The nose bounces up and down and so does the rudder. It feels way too sensitive and doing minor corrections to my aim is impossible. Lucckily it has a lot of ammo. I think pulling some 3 G's and attacking from hi 4 or 8 o'clock is the easiest way to shoot in F4U.

Spitfire IX:

It doesn't turn, climb, dive, retain E etc. It has terrible undermodelled guns and too few ammo. It's also very fragile.

Sorry for the last one... couldn't resist...

------------------

Bugjam

VMF-58 Wildcards

wildcards.warbirds.org

whwk posted August 20, 1999 07:42 AM            

The 110(x) Terrible auto climb, poor defense, slow turn, stalls easy. Have seen very few people that can fly this plane correctly (if there is such a thing) The only good part about it is it's awesome guns. Mainly a buff hunter, but then again poor climb and stalls easy at altitude over 20K.

-whwk-

Sascha posted August 20, 1999 07:47 AM

I ll prolly get flamed for this but I find the Dora to be a very difficult plane to master. Sure you can point your nose dwn and run away but that's not really "mastering" the plane now is it?

Compared to its advesaries (especially the P-51D) it is a dog to handle. It hates violent maneuvers and I m having a hard time training my guns on enemy planes if the pilots aren't dweebs.

Hey didn t I hear somewhere that the Dora's CG was messed up? I just can t believe that this plane was such a handful to maneuver.

In the interview with Heiny Bär on Janes WW2 Fighters he points out very clearly how much better the D-9 was compared to anything else the LW had. Well maybe just for him she was better...

Also the Spit 14 can give you some nasty surprises if you are used to the earlier models only. This is in no way a TnB plane IMO.

Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"

-audi- posted August 20, 1999 07:54 AM            

you said it depends on the flier [which of course is part right] but ai think it depends on the nme...

In the f4f against spit vb's and IX's there are a few of us in VF-17 who rarely get bothered... the moment the spit tries turning with you you know you should win.. and turnfight they do try... now someone who does bnz in the spit against us we KNOW we are in trouble ;-)

------------------

-audi- VF-17 8X

The Jolly Rogers

Ghostt posted August 20, 1999 09:14 AM            

A6m2, an easy plane to die in for sure.

Also an easy plane to get kills in if you know what your doing.

Val, hehehe, well I've come to understand why toad likes it. Kills while not easy to come by, when are finally accomplished are truly wonderfull. Leaves you beaming & bragging for days!

Try takeing a p47 single handed in a val.

Then you'll know the meaning of Tough!

Ju87g is a killer with a 10k Airstart.

Roll over, eng off, scream down to low furball, pick your plane, level out below him, eng on, scream up his tail & WHAM WHAM WHAM, POOF! he's gone. Course you have to pick the right target & helps to be able to hit it.

Also does a great job on ack.

To me what makes Warbirds great is that guys actually fly these planes & get kills.

Rebel posted August 20, 1999 09:32 AM            

The P47C and D are probably the MOST fun to fly, IMHO.

It's not THAT hard to get a kill in.

If ya want the easy way, try this.

1.)climb to about 14,000 feet.

2.)head over to that furball you saw on radar.(you DID check radar, didn't you?)

3.)Wait for someone to disengage, then follow.

Here's where the fun begins, folks

4.)After he leaves the fight, dive.

5.)shoot. Even if you miss, he's gonna be scared shitless, and yankin and bankin.

6.)Zoom.

Repeat steps 2-6 until you're out of ammo, or fuel.

------------------

-Rebel out-

487th Lil' Bastards

funked posted August 20, 1999 09:33 AM            

In terms of suitability to task, it's the TBF for bombers and the Hurricane/Ki 43 (tie) for fighters.

funked posted August 20, 1999 09:35 AM            

Yeah Rebel I agree. The guns on the P-47 are just beautiful. Wall of lead!

tafkas posted August 20, 1999 09:45 AM            

190A4 has somewhat slow climb rate, does not like rapid turns. The LW chiefs considered rollrate to be more important. Guns are excellent if you re-trim right before firing and do not load stick. Does a high yoyo OK which partly makes up for reluctance to turn.

190A8 more of a tank.

190D9 had inline engine, therefore would have been even more resistant to turns and yaw because of the gyroscopic effect of the long engine. Not a dogfighter at all. I have always maintained that the key to using the 190 effectively is to use speed and surprise, then get the hell out. But I do not always practise what I preach

109F - OK, except for diabolical compression, which also affects F4U/Corsair. I am the "wrong hands" that --ik-- speaks about in his website.

Spits had water cooled engines, so one ping to the coolant jacket would immobilise the engine in a very short time. The radial air-cooled engines could take more punishment.

What we want now is a thread about which evasion techniques to use from each type of aircraft.

BTW 110 is bad in auto-pilot climb because it did not have counter rotating props, and therefore was subject to asymetric forces. Apparently, they couldn't develop a "mirror image" camshaft in time to implement counter rotation of the props.

T.A.F.K.A.S. the airman formerly known as scrmbl

daddy posted August 20, 1999 10:01 AM            

IMO, Any a/c with a horrid 6 view are the harderst for me.

I have found the 190s to be right up there with spits, as far as the easiest plane to do well in.

------------------

Steve(daddy)

Fourth Fighter Group

Warbirds Training Staff

SnakeEyes posted August 20, 1999 10:15 AM            

Actually, the 190D is fantastic in the vertical. She can "turn" there... but don't expect her to do a flat horizontal turn real well...

As far as 6-views go, I have no problem with the F4U or FM-2, but I stay away from the F6F... I just cannot abide its anemic roll rate. While all the 109 jockeys whine about how tough it is to fly their a/c, I think the F6F takes the cake.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

Fourth Fighter Group

Daff posted August 20, 1999 01:46 PM            

Heh, I actually find the P-47D harder to fly than the C.

Ok, so you dont have the 6 view of the D and the climb is pathetic, but roll & turn are way better on the C (Shorter fuselage, 1000lbs lighter).

More importantly, the C is superior to most of it's counterparts in the RPS.

In the D, you'll be fighting the usual gobs of SpitXIV's & Ki84s...in the C, the only plane that can catch you in level flight, is the 190A4 on the deck.

The P40E is hard to fly, IMO. Youc cant really use it's speed (in dives), without getting a heavy elevator.

The 109G is also a tricky bird..takes a very gently hand to fly it.

Daff

CO, 56th Fighter Group

56th.warbirds.org

"Gentlemen! You cant fight in here! This is the WarRoom!"

(Dr. Strangelove)

Edbert MOL posted August 20, 1999 02:06 PM            

quote:

stay away from the F6F... I just cannot abide its anemic roll rate. While all the 109 jockeys whine about how tough it is to fly their a/c, I think the F6F takes the cake.

When we visited the Lone Star Air Museum during Con97 they had a copy of every "Cat" there was except the Tomcat. The guy who walked us around had flown every one of them a great deal and what he said he liked most about the Hellcat was the roll rate! Those of us familiar with the WB-F6F kinda looked at each other puzzled. That museum also had a P38L, the curator said the F6F could roll almost twice for every roll of the Lightning (he blamed the extreme wingspan of the 38). It was particularly amusing since those were the days of the TIE-Fighter modelling of the P38

nopoop posted August 20, 1999 02:35 PM            

The Fw190's in slow flight scissors trying to save your hide cuz someone caught you.

I've been on the other end and some of you 190 drivers have the slow flight DOWN !!

Have yet to master it.

nopoop

buile posted August 20, 1999 03:04 PM            

The 109G is also a tricky bird..takes a very gently hand to fly it.

Ohhh, so *that's* why us 109 pilots have such a tough time keeping the girls away

buile-

p.s. Did that fellow fly the Lightning and Hellcat in the war? I'm wondering if the discrepancies the RL planes themselves, and between the WB and RL planes might have to do with speeds at which they roll best?

azs

Member posted August 20, 1999 03:21 PM            

daddy... I would say that you have hit it on the head as far as I'm concerned. These days a plane that can catch the early FW's can't really hurt em before it's outta ammo. It is very simple to make leathal snap shots and run away in the FW. Same for a corsair of course but... In the Hog the snapshots don't do any damage and you can't warp roll nearly as much and... you can't see what's/how far they are back there anyway.

funked posted August 20, 1999 03:31 PM            

Edbert: I have some data on roll rates and the F6F was not very good. Also I have ready many anectdotes which disparage the aileron performance, including one guy who said the lateral control was marginal for carrier operations! It's still a cool plane although I can't do a thing with it. Give me a P-47C or F4U any day!

jedi posted August 20, 1999 03:49 PM            

The only two planes I've flown that I didn't feel like I could make them do anything at all were the 190A8 and the 109K. You have to be planning MANY seconds ahead to actually get to use those great guns. The 109F and 109G are relatively "honest," but in the K or the A8, if the other guy sees you, you might as well hunt elsewhere IMO.

The Corsair is also not particularly easy to kill in, even after playing with it for 3+ years. You can almost always get ONE burst, but that usually isn't enough, and 2nd and 3rd chances are hard to come by in that plane, unless you're up against historical IJ foes.

The Hurri II, Spit V/IX, Hellcat/FM2 I find very easy to get a kill with, but of course difficult to survive an entire furball in

As far as "balanced" aircraft (feel about right as far as difficulty), I'd say the 109F and the P-51 are the most "predictable" as far as working to get a shot, and then rewarding your effort. The others either require too much work just to GET a shot, or don't have the firepower to reward you when you get it.

Just my .02, don't fly the Jug or Dora much.

SnakeEyes posted August 20, 1999 04:18 PM            

-M-2 is very easy to get home in... you just gotta kill anyone who f*cks with you on the way home.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

Fourth Fighter Group

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted August 22, 1999 06:18 AM            

hmmmmm most difficult fighter plane? The Hurricane when there's a Zeke in the area.

-ik-

Stab/Jagdgeschwader 77 "Herz As"

members.cruzio.com/~jeffs

Bombom

Member posted August 22, 1999 07:53 AM            

The Jugs are nowhere near as difficult to fly as you might think. 3,5 minutes to 10K with 100 fuel is not that shabby, and once you're up to speed the sixview is not a problem. Like rebel said, it's well suited to work the top off any furball. Just don't yank the stick and it flies beautifully. Fave kill is to nail SpitXIV's hanging on their props in that sweet "kill me!" posture <eg>. Keep it around 270-450 ias and never turn IN the fur - let it stretch its legs a bit, then reverse. It's a great killer if you're good at deflection shots - don't try to saddle up but read the bandit and think 20 seconds ahead. You might not score in every pass, but you get a LOT of passes

-bmbm-, XO 56th FG

56th Fighter Group: 56th.warbirds.org

Downtown posted August 22, 1999 05:06 PM            

I actually don't like the P-51D.

When I try to BnZ in the Plane, and need to slow down that last little bit because the plane I'm diving on starts to turn, I cut the throttle and nose up to try and bleed off a little E and the NOSE DROPS LIKE A ROCK.

I guess the Mustang D is great for vultching, and people not watching their SA, but the nose drops. I have noticed this with that Spit XIV also.

The torque in the Dora always keeps me pushing the stick just to keep level flight, but I did get my best (3 in 1) in a Dora.

I like the the P-40B, Spit Vb and IX the best.

I need to BnZ even though I like to turn fight, which isn't the smart thing to do.

I know the 50s are supposed to be better but have been dissapointed in the performance of the JUG (Either P-47) every thing I have read said that if you got one in your sights, the eight 50s would melt away anything. I got a A6M in my sights one day, lots of nice hit sprites, 20+ FPS, zeke flies home? ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH.

------------------

The ammuntion when laid out for a p-51 streched nine yards. When a Pilot emptied all his ammo into a target he "Gave it the Full Nine Yards!"

paarma posted August 23, 1999 12:10 PM            

Hardest to

take off: Me262

land: 190-A8

survive: HurriI & A6M2

109G? It's the best plane available when it arrives in RPS!

//paarma

paarma@warbirds.org

"Henki pois ja veri kiuluun!"

redarrow posted August 24, 1999 01:43 AM            

Okay...here's mine...I have only tried the P-47 twice...each time I crashed right after take-off....so much for the P-47!

The 190 (any version) isn't easy, since there are more things that it CAN'T do, than it CAN do. Can't turn, can't do a loop, and any sudden movement causes it to turn upside down....

The 262 is a real beast...enough said.

------------------

arrowz

The 501st Fighting Flies

"Edato Plumbum"

Skudio osted August 24, 1999 03:22 AM            

I'm gonna say, for me, any of the 190's. I'm just to used to flying like a twit to have any control in these.

The pilots out there that CAN fly them scare the crap out of me with what they can do with them. Same goes for the P-38, and P-47 guys. Yikes!

Jan Nousiainen posted August 24, 1999 07:52 AM            

quote:

The Jugs are nowhere near as difficult to fly as you might think. 3,5 minutes to 10K with 100 fuel is not that shabby, and once you're up to speed the sixview is not a problem.Like rebel said, it's well suited to work the top off any furball. Just don't yank the stick and it flies beautifully. Fave kill is to nail SpitXIV's hanging on their props in that sweet "kill me!" posture <eg>. Keep it around 270-450 ias and never turn IN the fur - let it stretch its legs a bit, then reverse. It's a great killer if you're good at deflection shots - don't try to saddle up but read the bandit and think 20 seconds ahead. You might not score in every pass, but you get a LOT of passes

Same instructions fit to Fw 190 and other E fighters like P-51 nicely. Always have alt over your enemies, never use more than 3 G's, turn horizontally only when you are going for a sure kill and when you shoot, do not miss!

Most planes and pilots can evade E fighters attacks for ages if they see you in time. The key is to deny him any evasive maneuver and be able to hit him from all angles, especially from above even in the shortest snapshots.

While ACM gives you opportunity to shoot, gunnery is the most important factor which decides who gets killed.

Many angles fighter have been confident that turning to higher attacking E fighter is safe move due to usually enormous closure rate which makes shooting difficult. This is not the case if E fighter pilot knows how to shoot.

The difference between P-47 and Fw 190 is guns. P-47 can use long tracking shots and try short snapshots more liberally than Fw 190. But Fw 190 will get kill in shorter shooting time.

For a start E fighting is bit frustrating, hitting evading enemies is difficult and disengaging in time takes dicipline. But after you master the art of air to air shooting, E fighting is propably the safest way to fight.

------------------

ObrFhr jochen 1./JG27 'Afrika'

vadr posted August 24, 1999 10:55 AM            

Giving away my secrets here...

A couple of tips on flying the 109, especially the G and K.

The controls you have to be MOST aware of in the 109 are the throttle and trim. Put the nose over and leave the throttle up, and you'll go screaming straight down with your control surfaces locked (but you know that already).

I'll normally half-roll to start an attack from above after pulling the throttle to idle, then put in a bunch of right rudder on the way down to increase drag (sort of a slip). Unless you are REALLY vertical, this will keep your controls reasonably functional. It also stores a TON of potential energy. If you don't like the situation, unload the rudder, punch the throttle, and split. You have to really manage the throttle on the way down. The objective being to stay right on the verge of compression (keeping your speed up for safety) while not actually locking up.

If your controls DO lock up, you HAVE to be quick on the trim. Vigl and kats actually advocate using trim to line up the target (I'm not that good with it yet) in order to keep your speed up. At any rate, trim still works when the controls are locked, and Ive got 2 buttons on my jstick configured for up and down trim.

Lastly, fuel. In the G and K, lighter is better. I rarely ENGAGE with more than 40% fuel in the tank.

Hptmn. Vadr

Stab/JG 27 'Afrika'

http://jg27.org/

vadr@jg27.org

"Potential is interesting. Performance...Counts"