whwk posted 04-07-99 02:26 PM            

There ia a very good post here that talks about merge tactics. I would like to thank all the pilots that posted to it because I now have some new ideas to avoid the dreaded HO warp death. I appreciate you sharing your expertise with us dweebs.

I have a question for you. What is the best defense or offense to use against the guy that has the 5-10k altitude advantage on you? He may circle your base and wait for you to turn you back on him to pounce on you or if you try to climb up to him he uses his speed advantage to take you out.

I don't know how many times this has happen to me. You know the guys is up there but he truly has you at a disadvantage.

I know one choice would be to go to another base then fly over to fight him on an even playing field, but alot of times he is gone by then and you have waisted 10 minutes looking for the guy.

Any comments?

-whwk-

fd ski posted 04-07-99 02:34 PM            

Tricky..

True alt monkey will usually aviod situations where he blows his whole adventage...

One way to aviod him, make sure you're not the highest of his potential targets. Alt monkeys always engages highest ones first.

Other, if he engages, split low, they will usually go to play with someone else...

One thing that everyone forgets is how hard it is for an energy fighter to get a clear firing pass, and how easy it is to aviod one. Simple seeing the guy up there and tracking him and you fly to your intended mission target takes away 50% of his adventage.

If you are in the group, group should split in all directions, the guy who is attacked should split s and drag low while others are climbing...

Alt monkey's don't like highly skilled opposition low, it's just too frustrating...

fd-ski

Sludje posted 04-07-99 02:36 PM            

I go to the nearest adjacent base and grab on the way back to him. I know that is not what you wanted to hear, but unless you are really adept at ACM and tactics I think it is suicide to try to go against somebody that has that kind of advantage. I am sure there are many other thoughts on this situation and I am looking forward to reading this thread.<Sludje>

popeye posted 04-07-99 02:44 PM            

Never climb up to a fight.

You need to equalize the bad guy's energy state with yours. You can do it by increasing your E, and/or getting him to blow his.

If you are over your base, and the ack is intact, stay near the ack while you get altitude. Venture just far enough to entice the bad guy to make an attack. Keep your speed up enough to maneuver. Time your evasives to make him miss, while minimizing your own E loss. Try to use evasives that finish with your nose up, and his nose down.

If you are away from protective ack, the process is pretty much the same. Set a course toward friendlies, at a moderate climb, keeping enough speed to maneuver. The bad guy will have to dive to attack. You are gaining E, while he is losing it. If he follows, keep an eye on him. When he gets within D40 or so, make gradual level turn back to get him in front of you. If he attacks, evade so that you finish headed toward friendlies, with your nose up.

Repeat until E is equalized, then kill.

You will be able to tell pretty quickly if the bad guy knows what he is doing. If he does, start yelling for help.

popeye

Stiglr posted 04-07-99 04:07 PM            

As the guy usually on the top end of this situation (in my favorite 109), I always HATE it when some total dweeb who has the gall to know what he's doing turns the tables on me . I almost always salute him once I'm back in the air again.

Usually, it's a combination of me getting my fangs out too far and wanting a nice, easy one- or two-pass kill, and what the enemy does.

Usually, I get in a dive too steep for my own good and throttle back to control the plane. Couple this with a well-timed pull up (yes, up!) by the enemy that makes me lose sight and forces me to blow E trying to regain SA and get my perch back and you have the recipe for disaster. There are a few guys who do this extremely well; by the time you discover you should have made a "feint dive" to draw the evasive, it's too late.

On the other side of this, I remember Day One of last tour, when I was trying to get alt to intercept some bogies one base over and found two Zekes waiting overhead. They wouldn't let me leave. I used the ack below me to deny them any long tracking shots, and forced them into diving down onto me and compressing. Then I made my break, knowing that I'd already robbed the Zekes of their trademark on-a-dime turn.

Before long, I got them lower, slow, jinking in my ack and out of ideas; then some other guy took off from the base and they tried to turn their attention to him suddenly. I had the perfect drag and blasted them both. It was patience, knowing the relative planes and (I'll admit it) having friendly ack that really helped out.

Bombom posted 04-07-99 04:12 PM            

What fd-ski said.

Climb at a speed which allow effective guns defense rather than clawing up toward him at 150kias. On every pass, you will gain a few K while he will lose some. Sooner or later, depending on skill and bloodlust, you'll become co-E. The true alt monkey will have departed long before that though

If there's only one of him and several of you, start boxing him in by climbing with a lot of separation.

-bmbm- 56th FG

funked posted 04-07-99 04:25 PM            

Well pretty much what the other guys said...

If it's a good pilot, you should avoid him, grab some alt, and bounce him while he's engaged.

But if you are impatient/foolish/on steroids/just havin' fun, get a plane like a Yak-3 or Bf109-F or Ki-84. Something with a good power-to-weight ratio.

Climb at him. If he is really weak, he will HO. HO is 50-50 odds, an improvement if you are at a 10k deficit. If you can shoot well, the tables have turned in your favor.

If he is fairly smart, he will move over you, get to your rear quarter, and make a diving attack.

You've got to make a well timed evasive move - make sure you have maneuvering speed at the crucial moment. A large barrel roll works great for me.

Assuming you can avoid his shot, he has 2 choices:

1. The classic Spit-driver solution: he pulls his stick into his lap, and waits for you to appear in sights. He will quickly blow his energy advantage. It's now just a turnfight - If you are in a good turning plane, you might win.

2. He realizes he has missed the shot, extends, executes pitchback to regain energy, tries it again.

You should follow his climb, but retain enough speed to avoid his attacks. Shoot at him if he is in range, but don't run yourself out of energy trying to shoot him.

Because you have chosen a plane with a great power-weight ratio, you should be able to gradually erode his energy advantage after a few cycles of him climbing, attacking, overshooting, climbing...

This whole thing is based on you being able to make him miss on each guns pass. This requires a certain amount of speed and flying skill. If he is a great shot he may kill you anyways.

Warning: The attacker may bluff a guns pass, get you to make your evasive move, then make a real pass while you are still recovering from the evasive move. This is like a pump-fake in basketball, watch out for it.

Example: I had an awesome fight with BB-Gun (<S> Bud) on jet day a few tours back that ended this way. I was in a Me 262, He was in a P-51D. The P-51 has a better thrust:weight ratio than the 262. I had the alt advantage. I would dive, and each time he kept his speed up, and made a nice move. I attacked him 3 more times, getting more frustrated. I was losing my energy advantage, and he got a couple of pings in on one of my zooms. Finally I pitched down for another attack, pulled up early, then rolled inverted and pulled down hard. It broke the rhythm of the engagement, so when I turned back into him I caught him climbing very slowly - he had already exhausted most of his speed avoiding my bluff. I made a rare (for me) Me 262 deflection shot and killed him.

Gryf posted 04-07-99 04:32 PM            

I personally like to enagge alt monkeys. Most are easy to avoid if you can track them and if you can really get them to engage you force them to blow the advantage.

If you want to run like hell from one, the split-S and go away. If you want to fight him, draw him down and get him to fight you 1:1. If you are in the ack or a group of friendlies he will always stay high. If you go off alone and fight you will draw him in. However you better be sure of your ability to fight him when you go off into your lonely corner of the world

Unlike Popeye I ALWAYS climb when I can. I keep the Airspeed at 200 and watch for anyone behind me. 200 IAS is a good manuveuring speed for most AC and is fast enough for you to dodge and jink in level fight. When he comes in, level off, roll the opposite direction of your engine torque and pull him into a turn. This should bleed off some of his energy. Watch for him and time a reverse roll, in the direction of your engine torque (helps roll you back faster). He'll roll fast because he has some speed but will not be able to match your turn. He'll pull off, you roll back into him and watch him go up and around. If you're really fast and time it right you can ping him at D2-D3 as he runs. With a 190 opponent, that ping always produces a sharp nose down and run like hell for home response.

If he was smart he pulled off during the turn you were doing. Watch him the entire time you turn and if he pulls off, straighten out and grab more alt.

Repeat as needed. Pretty soon he goes in, pulls up to get out and finds you can match his High G pull with your own Low G pull. You nail him at the top of his loop. Mutter "Sucker" and go on to kill other hapless opponents

=Gryf=

CO Rogue Gryffons -BYA-

Baxl posted 04-07-99 04:35 PM            

Ok, I'm with you guys so far, but one thing I haven't perfected yet is how to break correctly to ruin his/her guns solution, yet still retain a visual on him/her. I often see my attacker coming, yet too many times I can't get out of the way properly. Where this really gets me is when I spot someone closing in on my hi 4 or 8 O'Clock position. How far should a person break to one side? And how long should you sustain the turn?

Baxl CO *Pale Riders Squadron*

airbss posted 04-07-99 05:22 PM            

The barrel roll evasive that is was mentioned earlier is a great move. Gunjam and a few others are experts at this move(I stink at it). I've made guns passes at these fellows a few times with significant energy, they barrel roll and time it so that they get a split second ping off as you wizz by, if you combine this technique with excellent gunnery

it makes for a rather upsetting experience . Theres nothing like a good ping to scare off an altitude monkey. Plus, the barrel roll is an evasive move which does not require you to blow altitude, afterall, your trying to climb up to the guy.

As far as gainig altitude against a higher opponent you have to ask yourself one question..Do you feel lucky punk..well, do you..If so, like the other fellows said start a gentle climb in the opposite direction of the con, as he comes back swing around and evade. Repeat the process until you can blast him. This is essentially what Shaw mentions in his book, in addition to trying to draw the con in with a barrel roll during your evasive move.

Jekyll posted 04-07-99 07:50 PM            

I think everyone has just about covered everything I was going to say.....

The only thing I'd add is that if you are going to climb (gently) up to that alt monkey con, I'll always try to do it directly beneath him.

The one thing you don't want to give an alt advantaged con is the opportunity to build his airspeed in a long, ahallow approach to you. It just makes his job so much easier if he can come barreling down on you in a slight dive, or even level flight, so that he can reverse with a gentle E conserving vertical reversal.

But if you stay underneath him, while maintaining your own airspeed, you invite him to attack from too steep an angle. If you can dodge his firing pass and then go vertical yourself he will blow just about all of his energy advantage hauling on the stick just trying to pull out of his steep dive.

2.6 gunnery will really make this interesting, as at present the enemy can be vertically dropping on you, get pings in at D6 and still have 1800' of altitude to recover in before he vertically overshoots you. But in 2.6, with effective gunnery range cut to 400 - 600', making that steep drop on the target will be a very risky venture.

6gun posted 04-07-99 11:16 PM            

Well the answer to your last question about how far the bad guy has to be from your six before your turn is, far enough to make him miss, without letting him follow you around for another easy shot. Depends on speeds, planes involved etc. You get a feel for it, once you recognize the problem, as you do.

Like Chuck Yeager said (and I believe he meant it) it's not the best plane (or advantage I believe he also meant) it is the most experianced pilot that wins.

BTW, before I go on, I like Gryf's post the best by far of all those above, except I dont pay much attention to engine torque, except in a SpitV. He is spot on, about the 200 isa. That is about the perfect speed imho to turn. So, as long as you keep about that speed, you can climb all day.

Now, if he is behind you, coming up fast just wait till he is about d6 or d7 before breaking. However you want to be 'moving' a bit while he is getting to that distance. Just 'move' a bit to one side or the other. Let him shoot his ammo hehe. Also, put your nose down a little bit, just enough where he is going to miss with a really long shot.

If you want to be done with the whole matter, simply split-s if you have the alt and run home. If that's not an option I usually kick over to the left or right a bit, push the nose down and let him go by.

If he stays straight he is now in front as I pull back into the original line, and of course I put a load of lead in his plane if possible. If energy state is really bad for you, pour that lead on! Hit the guy for goodness sakes! That's a tough spot, and I am going to do all I can to hit him hard at that time.

However, if he is good at all, he is just going to zoom up, using a hi-yo yo and come back and kill you unless you have another trick up your sleeve.

Actually I don't think I ever fear the guy coming up on my rear at speed, unless I am way low and slow. What I do fear is the enemy that goes by, pulls up well and circle turns above me faster than I can track.

Because... if I run out of speed and stall, he has an easy slow moving target to follow down. All the good pilots on WB do that.

But if I just dodge a bit, let him go past and I keep going fairly straight, he simply dives down, albeit to a faster target, but more vulnerable than the first time he made a pass. That's when things get interesting.

Frankly, if the guy is good and knows his cyber-business (tm) he is going to match you move for move and end up above you, and finally on your six.

I recall well a fight I had with Squid a few years ago, back when you could fight without a wad of folks rushing in. He had the best plane (at that time), a P-38L and I had a SpitV. But the planes were fairly well matched. Anyway, we started going into the dance about 10000 feet over the ocean. He had at most a 200 foot advantage at the start.

When we ended up down at the water, still going in circles he had.... about a 100 to 200 foot advantatge, at stall speed as I was. And, sadly to say, he used it and beat me.

So what to do with a guy who knows his business? Well, if I am going to get beat you can bet I am going to shoot the guy right in the face. (hehe cyber-ouch)

Make him pay. He has the alt/energy advantage. Make him use it! Pull your nose right into him while you still have speed and duke it out headon. I dont like to point right at him until I am D-6 to D-7 headon. I pick one wing up a little bit and slip to one side or the other at about d12 or so as he comes boring in.

He misses cause I moved just a bit, then he cuts across the line to correct. However I have stopped moving sideways and have corrected to where his line will be as he moves toward where I was moving. I start shooting. He sees I have stopped moving (you go left young man in a Spit dont forget) to the side and tries to correct back to where I am now. However I have a wad of lead on that line already

Hopefully he flies into it, as I have stopped shooting and dropped my nose quickly at about d2 or d3, depending on closing speeds. I want to duck just enough for him to fly over me.

In best case scenario he was dumb and tried to duke it out headon, abusing his energy advantage. Worst case, he had to dodge and I have him behind me and hopefully can run like... well you know However, again if he is smart he will avoid the head-on and try to circle around you.

A final point: Always remember, verticle circles save more energy than flat ones. The hi faster guy can afford flat, you have to try verticle. The trick is not to get too slow going over the top, where your airspeed is slowest of course, that you are slow and big (the slower your plane, the Bigger it gets! well not really, but it is much easier to hit) So, if you are going to be too slow, go as nearly verticle as you can, while adding some horizontal (flat) turn!

Finally, you will find, you go totally horizontal, to keep speed, then finally you have to point your nose down, more and more to keep enough speed to keep him off your six. That of course describes the fight I had with squid (and others) quite well. Once you are down to the water or land, he will still be on top, if he is good.

That's why no good pilot fears a person under him much, if they are in the same planes etc.

Cheers,

6gun

Baal posted 04-07-99 11:40 PM            

Haven't read through this whole thread yet, but as a card carrying alt-monkey... If you are at a significant alt disadvantage, do not think offense or you will die. Every time, guaranteed. Think defensively until you can get enough alt to take him on in a fair fight. Since I hate fair fights, I usually climb even more yet. I'm sure all the proper defensive stuff has been outlined above.

B

josf posted 04-08-99 03:18 AM            

whwk,

Get some altitude over an enemy plane and look at this from the opposite perspective.

If you can get the kill then see what was difficult. If you can't get the kill then see why not. If you get killed instead then try asking the opponent what he did to turn the tables if it isn't abundantly clear.

Joe

Gryf posted 04-08-99 10:08 AM            

Baxl: I use the high 6 view and turn keeping him there until the con is between D9 and D6, depending on closure rate. Timing is key here. If you come by the training arena on Sunday night, I'll show you the move.

Baal: "There is are such things as a defesive moves, just increasing desperate offesive one" (It's AC's tag line from email (I think ))

But really, I almost never think defensive in any situation. My gola is to win. Only time I go defensive is the nose down and run for home ploy. Now Bottom line for all that is a perfect offense will beat a perfece defence every time. If you allow the guy with alt to control the fight you will lose every time. No doubt about it. the only option you are left with in that type of fight, if fought defesively, is to split-s and run home. First, there is nothing wrong with that move if you are unsure of your abilities. Second it's not very agressive and if you have a single high con, you can develop offensive tactics that will allow you to get the enemy.

With proper training (go by the training arena, I hear they have some great trainers ) a good sense of timing and a feel for the fight you can really turn the tables on the enemy

Michael Weber

=Gryf=

CO Rogue Gryffons -BYA-

popeye posted 04-08-99 10:53 AM            

Gryf wrote:

"Unlike Popeye I ALWAYS climb when I can."

What I said was, "never climb up to a fight". Meaning, don't *attack* from below.

If you read my post, you'll see that we use the same tactic: climb to increase E, while maintaining enough speed to maneuver. Keep an eye on the bad guy, and evade with nose high maneuvers, until his E advantage is negated -- THEN attack.

popeye

whwk posted 04-08-99 11:51 AM            

"Alt Monkey" LOL

WOW thanks for all the advise guys. I usually climb or try to climb up to my opponent and get killed in the head on pass or stall out and run for cover only to be chewed up as I descend.

Another problem that I have is that from the Red Baron days I am still bent on the turn and stall fighting mentality. The change over has been difficult. (yea I know it's been 3 years but it's the only excuse I can think of) Anyone for a buff fight...

Salute guys and cya there

Colonel -whwk-

hardcase posted 04-08-99 12:23 PM            

BnZ Defense or how I turned it into a TnB.

First get your velocity up, even if it means diving and giving the bad guy even more alt advantage. You want your ac at a good maneuver speed. Turn TOWARD him. You want to take away any Lead/Lag turn advantage he might try. Let him commence his Boom and you simply wait. Wait till he is very fast and around 8-1000yds from you, then do an easy split S. He will be so fast he cannot nose over to follow you at bottom of your split or to roll inverted and pull you at the beginning of your split. If he attacked from your 12 OC pos you level out at the bottom and reaquire him as he zooms, climb just enough to compensate for your alt loss of the split, get your E back up and do it again. If he drives from your 6 pos..you complete the loop, reaquire him, get you E back up and setup again. Do this enought and he slowly tries to reverse sooner, giving up his E and slowly turning it into a TnB or giving you a guns solution as he tries a foreshorten extend, or he gives up and flies away.

hard

Jester posted 04-08-99 01:33 PM            

this isnt the majority opinion, BUT i always climb to high cons.

Reasons:

1)I have good SA?

2)Can tell what the con is doing before the con himself/herself even knows?

*3)I find it the most rewarding aspect of warbirds when you turn the tables on your foe...that is the real reason i like to push those situations.

however, i do not recommend it for newbies.

Jester ~Hell's Aces~

Baxl posted 04-08-99 04:25 PM            

Hey, thanks for all the good advice. But now for the hard part: What if I'm flying my Hellcat?(Feel free to jump right in & help me on this one, Lazs)

Last Sunday, Vila was kind enough to drop down on my six when I was in my Hellcat, and if it weren't for my squaddies and RW, I would've been dead meat before I even knew he was there. Here is a recording of the RW conversation in this example: "Yo, Bax. You got a 38 on your 6!"

"Holy Sh@t! It must be Vila! Don't suppose one of you could drop on down and save me, be a good fellow?"

Well, to make a long story less long, Vila shot me up real good, but my buds drove him off long enough for me to get jumped by Lawndart(yet again unseen by me), who promptly shot both ailerons off! Hehe, my trusty Hellcat stayed together long enough for me to ditch on a deserted Isle. Luckily, Gilligan and the Skipper were there, standing by to take me back to base in the Minnow. Mary Ann was kind enough to Lai me and wish me a safe journey.

Where was I? Hehe, sorry, got caught up in the memory of that wild encounter.

Anyway, any tips for Hellcat drivers(besides the usual smart-aleck remark like "don't fly the hellcat" or "Yeah, get a wingman")?

Baxl CO *Pale Riders Squadron*

whwk posted 04-08-99 08:40 PM            

Rofl Thats a great one Bax, hell of a story, you can fly with me anytime sir LOL..

-whwk-

Baal posted 04-09-99 01:16 AM            

Hiya Gryf,

I musta been real tired when I wrote that. Real tired now too. I meant to say that if you have a serious alt deficiency you shouldn't attempt to initiate the fight. Certainly if attacked, there are many things you can do to turn the tables, and being offensive minded is the only way to survive. But if the high con isn't attacking you, steer clear until you get alt yourself.

GunsGG posted 04-09-99 07:35 AM            

Hmmmmm.....lots of great advise here. Well, mine is not even close to being the best, but it works for me. If there are multiple cons above me, I go play somewhere else. If it's a single con, I ignore him. Well not really. But I try to make him think I don't see him. "fly casual"<-Star Wars

I try to keep him abeam somewhere, and if he dives on me, I wait untill I see the first tracers coming from his wings and do sort of a roll/wingover(don't know the name for this manuever) that lets him zoom by and I end up accelerating on his six.

Doesn't always work. But it works much better than pushing Shift-X and going to fix a sandwich. yep, guilty of that too!

Gryf posted 04-09-99 09:44 AM            

Baal: I kinda thought you were being passive there when you posted that. I dunno, I like to engage guys like that cause it's a fun challenge. (When I am at home. At the inlaws I can't fly fer crap with this setup ) But yeah, big issue is skill. If you have a method and it works, hone it by temping fate. Works fer me. Yeah, ok, I die a lot... Big deal

GunsGG: It seems like when you fly casual (Yeah Like Solo ever could ) You attract more cons than you want to fight in a week, let alone a minute.

=Gryf=

CO Rogue Gryffons