On the Fw190...

On the Fw190...

Last update - 12 January 1999

"Check Six" by DocDoom

Mike posted 12-08-98 07:55 AM ET (US)

Okay, in an earlier post...this is some of what lazs said...

"I understand that German single seaters after the Emil depend on either air superiority or...being able to sneak up, hit hard and then run away.

Even with all the LW squads it's hard to get any kind of air superiority in the MA so...What we have is huge neon billboards over the planes for "playability" . This also makes it a lot easier for the "sneak up and run away" crowd as they know what they are getting into before they blow all their alt. (the HA takes away some of this advantage) Now, planes like the Hog work well in this situation too, better in fact since they can track (turn) with the victim better. But...once you make your attack and pull away for the "run away" part...How far do you extend? D10, d20? Depends, but in the FW all you have to do is look back. Try that in a Navy plane. Unless you have zoomed in on a much slower plane you better not blow any e trying to get a look at something besides your own headrest. Now, when you combine the phony FW view with the phony Navy view, you get a really nasty artificial advantage for the FW. Plus, we all know that the top brace has been removed from the FW "so they won't have problems lining up their shot". Add the fact that the -4 is 30mph too slow at alt (where the cowardly dora lives) and ya walk away shaking your head. It just looks bad, and that breeds resentment.

Everyone here is trying to figure out what is wrong with the "community" . Well... It's resentment IMO and it's not the fault of the players it's the host. Huge lopsided numbers advantages in the MA have bred resentment. This is a host problem not a player problem. IMO the bogus six views have bred resentment. Throwing us a bone once every couple of years (like making the FW a 1 1/2 seater instead of a 2 seater) don't cut it for me. The resentment isn't only with the Navy guys (who are for the most part less outspoken than myself). No, it's not good for the LW or Spit guys either. A victory in a FW is cheapened by the bias. The other players resent them and the FW guys resent not getting full credit from the other players for their abilities. Again, the fault of the host not the players. When something is so obviously biased how can it not breed bitter resentment?

Why not just fly a FW? Seriously, we have the choice but for a lot of people the Fw is well...... not very fun. Plus, for me it cheapens the kill.

Why not fly a Spit? Hmm, what a good idea, wonder why no one else has thought of it!"

...now from my point of view, I disagree with some of these things.

I think the Fw 190 handles very well at high speed (it can track as well as the F4U, and because it bleeds speed quicker while doing so...for some unknown reason...as the F4U has more wing area and this should lose more speed in general in any type of turning situation) so in actuality I think it's better in this situation than lazs gives it credit for.

As far as German single seaters needing air superiority, the Bf 109F could outmaneuver nearly any aircraft it was matched against (a Spitfire V or Hurricane could turn a tighter circle, which most pilots realized didn't mean a damn thing after 1941 or so). The Fw 190A could outclimb, outdive, outrun, and outmaneuver (except in a tight horizontal circle) anything the British had when it appeared. If you totally outperform your opponent, why would you need air superiority?

Remember, the LW was a numerically inferior force (in terms of fighters) on the Channel Front and in North Africa, wasn't it?

The top brace was history for the most part by 1943, and not all Fw 190s before then had it (but hey, some did exist, I can see where that comment came from).

Honestly, from flying the Fw 190 for so long, the P-51 (both B and D), Spitfire IX and Spitfire XIV, and Ki-84 IA are all truly disgusting aircraft (in my opinion). After flying a Fw 190D-9 (my favorite ride in WB by a large large margin) if I hop into a Spitfire XIV it seems like I'm flying a UFO.

If you tracked my kills/sortie, score, kills/death while I flew all of the above aircraft, I gurantee that I'd have higher #s in the non Fw 190s.

All those aircraft are fast, turn well, climb well, and have plenty of firepower if you are an above average shot.

The F4U-4B was a total freaking monster to me...4 cannons with more ammunition than a Fw 190 [F4U-4B before WB 2.5 was armed with 4 x 20mm Cannon - front] ...faster at low altitude...dives like a meteor, and you don't have to use nearly as much care in high pitch maneuvers as in a Fw 190. When I flew a F4U-4B, I was killing everything in a d60 sphere around me (okay, exagerration there, but not by much). 8)

I don't fly the Fw 190 to dive in from 15,000'...spray my cannon at some schmuck stuck on the deck in a 4 on 1 (with him as the 1) and run away to climb back to 15,000'...so I can have long streaks and brag about it. I don't warp roll. I use low G evasives (training for the day when WB Gs are more like real life Gs), fire in short bursts on high % shots, and I love Fw 190s the same as I did when I was 5.

I fly Fw 190D-9s (Doras) and there's nothing remotely cowardly about how I do it. I'm the Fw 190D-9 in the vertical knife fight with 1 wingman under 10,000' altitude versus 4 or 6 or 10 enemies over an enemy airfield driving the CAP low because the B-17s are coming in at 15,000' and those fights always end up with 2 or 4 P-51Ds or Spitfire XIVs coming in at 10,000' minimum to force us defensive and if we return home missing parts it's because we were reversing to cover each other all the way home and giving 2 or more bad guys a shot at us every time we did.

You are right. There are guys that hover at 15,000' for easy kills in a safe environment in a Fw 190 in the MA. Guys do it in P-51Bs (the fastest aircraft around when it comes out), Spitfire IXs, F4U-1Ds, P-38s, in almost any aircraft type that is fast.

=drex= is a great pilot in almost any aircraft in WB. He's really good in a Fw 190 and Bf 109. But ask him sometime on private what he was flying in the MA when he ran up his best streak. I think you'd be surprised at the answer.

To me, the Fw 190D-9 is more of a challenge to do well in and survive that the Spitfire XIV, maybe the Spitfire IX, the P-51D, the P-51B, the P-38L, the Ki-84 IA. I know that's not the case with everyone, but that's why I don't agree. My reality is different than your opinion.

When you mention the 'cowardly dora', there are 4 or 5 other aircraft you should mention along with it. They can all do the same things that dora coward is looking to do, and if those 4 or 5 others get caught on the escape attempt you can yank on the stick past blackout and laugh at the G model.

As far as the 'why not fly a spit', and talking about doras hiding at alt, from what I see (which may not be entirely correct), I'd bet that there are more Spitfires and P-51s flown in the MA over a TOD than Fw 190s. When the F4U-4B was still around, I'd add that in with the P-51s and Spitfires for certain.

You have some points...but if you call guys cowards and cheaters with general statements, someone is going to respond defensively (you haven't really done that in awhile, but try to remember that).

Mike ('wulfie')

octol posted 12-08-98 09:16 AM ET (US)

Couldn't agree with you more

octol-

lazs posted 12-08-98 09:22 AM ET (US)

maybe, but not likely. The juncture of wing root and fuselage is very important for retaining e and the best juncture in anyones book is the 90 degree one like an f4f or gull wing Hog.

Don't forget that nasty front brace in the pre-'44 FW's. As for the 109F, yeah it handled ok. I actually have nothing against flying the 109 series they can be fun unlike the FW's

On paper the LW was numerically inferior in a lot of cases but I know that you know that in practice the LW flew in much larger groups (whenever possible) and did the best when they had this type of local air superiority.

If you tracked my kills/sortie, score, kills/death while I flew all of the above aircraft, I gurantee that I'd have higher #s in the non Fw 190s.

All those aircraft are fast, turn well, climb well, and have plenty of firepower if you are an above average shot.

What does this have to do with anything? are you saying that we should give the 190's a break because they are outclassed? Make up your mind.

The F4U-4B was a total freaking monster to me...4 cannons with more ammunition than a Fw 190...faster at low altitude...dives like a meteor, and you don't have to use nearly as much care in high pitch maneuvers as in a Fw 190. When I flew a F4U-4B, I was killing everything in a d60 sphere around me (okay, exagerration there, but not by much). 8)

Are you saying that only the FW's deserve to be ammo barges or have cannon? Are you saying that Hog pilots with cannon are more deadly than FW pilots with cannon? Maybe you are saying that only FW pilots deserve cannon because they use them properly? Most importantly... are you saying that because the -4 is fast on the deck the Hog pilots should just take their lumps and be happy that it's 30 mph slow at alt.?

And for the record ... I have never called LW guys cheats or cowards I have corrected you in the past. For you to say that I have is .. well...... a lie

your friend for life

lazs

Mike posted 12-08-98 09:40 AM ET (US)

I'm not saying that we should give Fw 190s breaks. What I am saying is that the 'tactics' that you dislike so much which are used by the Fw 190s you speak of as just as effective (if not moreso) and seen just as often in several other types of aircraft.

You say that you never called LW guys cheats or cowards, but you have to understand that when you make comments like "anyone flying a Fw 190 has to know they are basically cheating due to the bogus 6 view" or "where the cowardly dora hides" you are going to offend some of them. Most 'LW types' fly LW aircraft because they like them...not for the views or any ease of flying (*most* of them).

At least I think you should be aware of that...I'd expect to get some flack from more people than just you if I made some derogatory comment about 'cowardly vulching F4Us racking up easy kills in the PTO HA', etc.

And no, I am not saying that only Fw 190s should have cannons and lots of ammunition. But for every person who gripes about booming and zooming Fw 190s who dive in, spray and pray, and run away without trying to fight, I could find you 3 more guys who have the same bitch about the P-51B (early war), P-51D (later on), or the F4U-4B.

In addition, I understand you are pissed about the rearview on the F4U and the speed of the F4U-4B. That's fine. Lots of Bf 109 lovers are pissed that the Spitfire XIV can catch the Bf 109K-4 at altitude. You don't hear them going berserk on everyone who likes Spitfires, Spitfire XIVs, etc.

You want realism? Fight for a PTO MA and an ETO MA...the matchups will be more like what people read about. Problems with the F4U? Hammer IMOL with your data. Go to El Toro MCAS on a weekend and take some pictures from the F4U cockpit there. But it doesn't make sense to me to hammer on the Fw 190 (and sometimes guys who like to fly them) to make your point.

If you send the data to IMOL, or call the appropriate guys at (817)424-5638 you'll find out their explanation real quick. If they don't have one, and there is a problem with the numbers, I'd bet it will get fixed fast. Remember...the Fw 190D-9 had it's weight corrected with a patch/update within 3 weeks of its release.

Guys are going to be defensive of their favorite ride.

As for the LW flying in larger numbers...I don't really know. The RAF learned how important that was during the Battle of Britain, and the LW were the defenders after 42 on the Channel coast...many accounts of 8 LW attacking more than 8 RAF.

Mike ('wulfie')

Mike posted 12-08-98 05:12 AM ET (US)

Okay, here's where I would differ in opinion.

You can knife fight in a Fw 190, especially in the vertical...against almost anything.

I'll call upon the 401 RCAF Rams and the 4th FG as witnesses. 8)

So I guess where I get annoyed is the 'general statements' - "There's only 1 fighting style the Fw 190 is capable of...", etc.

Maybe I am being thin skinned...but when I 'risk' staying in close and shoot down a Spitfire, etc., and someone tells me 'nice flying' on private I guess I'm kind of proud that I didn't take the easy/safe way out, extend to d30, and reverse for another HO pass.

I have no problem with guys who do that in the Fw 190...especially the newer guys who have absolutely no idea how to handle a Fw 190 at under 250 MPH IAS in Warbirds.

But if you fly a Fw 190 in a knife fight and win, you have to be better than your average schmuckateli in a Fw 190. And I'd argue that the Fw 190 is maybe the toughest aircraft to fight in at under 250 MPH in Warbirds.

When I post, I usually try to avoid the super generalized statements...so I don't unknowingly piss someone off. Maybe the whole blow up is as minor as 2 or 3 words in a sentence - "I'm sick and tired of being boomed and zoomed and HO'd by 95% of the Fw 190s in the main arena!" (that mention of 95% is what I'm talking about...giving credit to the 2 or 3 guys who will fly the Fw 190 and not run away at the first sign of trouble, and will extend to maybe d15 and come back for more...because they like to FIGHT).

As for the comment about 'having to run up, attack, then run away'...I will agree to that. But every aircraft in combat by 1943 (and almost any smart pilot by 1942) was using that tactic. You would have to do it even in a Spitfire, P-38, F4U, etc. in Warbirds if we had some real G effects modeled.

I guess all I was looking for was mutual respect for one's abilities. In the Pacific HA, when I was flying an A6M, I didn't bitch about F4Us who would extend (as opposed to enter a close in knife fight), or F6Fs, or P-40s, or whatever. Those guys are doing the right thing, like the real pilots did when fighting an aircraft with superior maneuverability and inferior top speed/diving speed.

Yeah, there were lots of weenies in Fw 190s, as well as other types of aircraft. But I know of a few guys who love to fly Fw 190s (myself included) who will come back in and mix it up versus heavy odds, whatever, because we like a challenge, and like to fight as much as any guy in a Spitfire or F4U.

So sometimes it gets old, getting lumped in with the kill streak hunting boom and zoom safe flying masses. Not because I think there's anything wrong with flying like that, but because when I reverse and engage the 2 Spitfires and the F6F and get dusted, I know that I at least had some balls. 8)

Just cool it on the big generalized insults. For the sake of my thin skin. 8)

Mike ('wulfie')

Mike posted 12-08-98 05:19 AM ET (US)

One more thing.

Odds are someone will say 'tough luck, I'm not altering my grammar to make sure you don't burst into tears in front of the monitor', etc.

I understand. Realistically, if you are good the guys you come up against know it, no matter the aircraft, the odds, the situation, etc.

I just expect (maybe stupidly) that guys are as 'nice' as I am when it comes to making sure I don't inadvertantly insult someone with a broad statement.

For all the fireworks between lazs and me, I still play it classy in the main arena. I'm sure lazs remembers the time that I broke off him while he was being chased by 2 other golds in his F4U-1D (and 'called 6' for him to boot) on the second to last day of the RPS. Why? How can you 3 on 1 a guy flying the only F4U-1D in the whole main arena in 1946?

I may be asking too much for everyone to be supercool and nice all the time in the MA, but the way I look at it is this - in real life you need to be on guard and confrontational all the time these days...why does that need to carry over into your leisure time (Warbirds, etc.)?

Mike ('wulfie')

Xbuk posted 12-08-98 05:33 AM ET (US)

I agree!! There are a few piolts that are trully FW ace's -df- , Drex, -hg- come to mind and of these I guaruntee 90% of there fights happen below 5k , and is more of a split - S style , Vert style of fighting than a Boom -n- Zoom... So the guys that are B-n-Z ing are not as good as these guys and maybe have not yet to understand the true nature of a FW... give them time.. its a slow learning curve... and face it if they turn around they probly will die.. so the only option is to run.. easy choice ??

Stiglr posted 12-08-98 01:49 PM ET (US)

What I don't understand here is the bitching about boom n zoom flying, "safe" flying and "smart" flying here. Especially if you don't have highly honed FW chops.

Excuse me, but I'm not gonna do a nice polite duel from a head-on merge, co-E with a Spit who won't lose E on *his* turns, can loop again, and again and again until the cows come home (or I auger) or who can outturn me while munching liesurely on a sandwich in the cockpit. Screw that; I'm gonna dive in at high speed, and nail that bastard. If I miss, NO, I'm not gonna try to turn inside him and fire again. That'd be stupid. I'll extend and come back later with more in the energy bank.

I have nothing but admiration for guys who fly their aircraft "smart" in a way that maximizes their chance of survival. Sure, hats off to you, wulfie, for having the "cajones" and the skill to knife-fight in a FW vs all odds, but most of the time, I'd just call you stupid for taking that on. If I overflew you in a fight like that, I might not even waste my E coming down to clear ya. Especially if I thought I'd end up getting waxed too. Not meaning wulf, but some dweebs are too stupid to bother saving.

I am one of those so-called "alt monkeys"; I take off from a rear field, get at least 4KM under my wings, and then I go looking for trouble, whether it be over my field or theirs. When I spot some guy below who didn't have the patience or the sense to grab, I dive on him mercilessly and work him like a redheaded stepchild. You *betcha* I play it safe. Why should I give him a chance to turn the tables on me? And there are some good guys out there who can actually turn the tables on me now and again!!! If I didn't fly "safely" I shudder to think how pathetic my K /D would be...and it's nothing to crow about as it IS!

Also, as the war drags into the late days, I find myself increasingly hunted down by fast, remorseless P-51s and -47s with tons of smash, descending in packs from out of the sun (damn you, sickboy and your 487th! ). I curse the very air they breathe, but I know they're just flying their planes the way they oughta be flown. I don't assume they have any less skill for maximizing their airplanes.

This whole argument about flying styles, and whether they're "manly" or "cowardly" or not is all wet. Either you get the kill or you don't. You rtb or you don't. How you arrive at that eventuality is YOUR business (warp-dweebing or cheating being the obvious exception)

Jagdgeschwader Funf Eismeer "The Hellspawn from Herdla"...one of a select few historically-based Luftwaffe squadrons, flying principly in the HA, SL, WW and other organized events.

funked posted 12-07-98 12:51 PM ET (US)

I'm wondering if anybody else does vertical reversals in the FW-190 this way:

Full throttle zoom, nose about 5 degrees short of vertical, for reference your canopy is on the East side of the airplane. Hold throttle 100% into stall horn. As plane the nose drops, use right rudder and let the engine torque roll you to the right. The nose falls straight down as you roll 180 degrees. You come out of it with the nose pointing straight down and your canopy once again on the East side of the aircraft.

I love this maneuver in the FW-190-A4. It seems to be very energy efficient and it is great for maintaining and energy advantage against planes like Bf-109 and Spitfire. I can't do it as well in the A8 or Dora though.

Anyways, my question is what is this called? I don't really know what it looks like from outside the cockpit. Is this the "hammerhead" people talk about? Or is there an other term?

Also, does anybody else do it this way, in the 190 or any other plane? I have read instructions to cut the throttle in this type of maneuver, but it seems to me that full throttle will give you maximum energy if you can avoid a spin.

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Crucible posted 12-07-98 01:40 PM ET (US)

That's more of a "wingover", where essentially one wing pivots as the a/c yaws. The outer wing rolls 180 and the nose is again pointing downwards, only now in the opposite direction.

Cruc

IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 12-07-98 01:45 PM ET (US)

Sounds like ye olde hammerhead to me bro. People tend to do this manuever using varioustechniques but get the same results.

I've got an illustrated version of the hammer at the roost and some basic techniques for the wurger at:

www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Hangar/3461/reversal.html

When I do my hammers I have to kill throttle at about 200kph and giver er some right aileron trim, if I don't, I'll spin that baby about 95% of the time. I use hard rudder input at the stall as well, and she seems to go to the right for me alot better than the left. I can usually pull this manuever off pretty well, but often times my timing will suck. hahahaha!! But it's a charm when you time it right!!

Methinks people's controllers have alot to do with how this technique is executed, and that's probably why there are so many different techniques for the same manuever. The hammer, and the wingover (at various angles) are my primary techniques for reversals depending on the situation.

I LOVE the FW series, the A4 is my favorite, followed by the dora!! But alot of people I see in the arena's try to fly it like a spit, or use the large ammo amount to wildly spray at their target, or stick with head-on shots, which really dont do the bird justice. There is NO other plane that does what the wurger can do in the assault. With it's high speed handling, and devastating cannons, its the only bird that will let the disciplined pilot fire a short burst, and regain his alt advantage without having to track his target and burn E. But it takes alot of discipline to set up that high speed gun run. There is no better feeling for me than to dive down on a con for speed, doing 300-350+ mph, dropping to the low six, watching the range marker scream down to D-2, fire a burst of cannon, and than go screaming by your crippled/destroyed/exploded enemy to regain your alt. I cant do that half as effective in any other bird.

C U above,

"Hey...nice cannons"

Idi

dhog posted 12-07-98 02:12 PM ET (US)

DocDoom has an excellent book (sorry, Doc, don't remember the name) that covers this kind of thing in detail. I highly recommend it. I'm sure you can find a reference on his home page, right Doc?

dhog out

cptkid posted 12-07-98 03:36 PM ET (US)

First off what speed are you going when you first pull into a vertical? I tend to fly the 190 alot (yes I know, 190 Dweeb:-) ) and I do find myself doing something stupid like trying to dogfight a spit or Zero <|8-P anyway it just seems that everytime I try to do some sort of vertical manuever that they are already on my ass and able to just follow me up either with their plane or just their rounds and nail me. I guess I sometimes have trouble keeping my e and tend to end up flying almost in a stall a lot of the times so I am already at a disadvantage to use this technique. Thats the reason I am asking you what speed you are going when you start this manuever.

Thanks

CPTKID (Rough Raiders)

funked posted 12-07-98 03:59 PM ET (US)

CPTKID:

I pull into the vertical at anywhere from about 180-200kmh (min. vert speed for a 190) and700kmh.

I start with the rudder at somwhere between 120 and 100 kmh. You want to have justenough speed to keep your ailerons effective as the plane is reaching it's maximum altitude.

Too bad we don't have WB telemetry or I could record one of these.

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Bino posted 12-07-98 05:14 PM ET (US)

I had this demonstrated to me by one of the WB trainers a few months ago. (I'm embarrassed to admit that I cannot recall just who it was!) He flew a P-38 and invited me to ride with him via the ".gun XXXXXX obs" command. Once you see a Hammerhead from that perpsective, it is much easier to understand!

While I can (usually) perform a Hammerhead in a Dora, its practical use in combat has, so far, eluded me. I seem unable to determine when I'm at the right distance from my pursuer for this move to be the right choice. Sometimes, I try it when the badguy's too close. Result: Bino gets shredded at the apex of his zoom, hanging motionless in the other guy's sights. Other times, I try this when I'm too far away. Result: badguy sees Bino go into zoom climb, so he does some diving maneuver (like a Split-S) and is long gone.

Guess I'm just destined to remain an Under-Assistant Junior Dweeb...

bino--

II./JG54

funked posted 12-07-98 05:25 PM ET (US)

BINO:

Yes the judgement on when to apply this maneuver is not easy, and is another topic entirely. Shaw's "Fighter Combat" book gives the best explanation I have seen of this. In short: figure out when it will get you shot, and never do it in this case. In the other cases, you can break off your zoom earlier in order to get back on the bandit. The earlier you break off, the less energy you will gain so it is a tradeoff of position for energy.

Read Shaw!

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Bino posted 12-07-98 05:50 PM ET (US)

funked:

Rest assured, my old copy of Fighter Combat is dog-eared, underlined, and highlighted.

When my timing works, I end up holding the zoom until the badguy's nose falls through the horizontal, and then I take the quickest route back down. This is normally by rolling to place him right on my lift vector and pulling enough G to get my nose pointed back at him.

But I find judging the moment difficult, since the timing depends on his E (speed), my E (my speed and height above him) and the straight-line distance between us.

bino--

II./JG54

TheFIsh posted 12-07-98 06:34 PM ET (US)

I talked to my girlfriend's uncle, who was a Tomcat pilot in the Jolly Rogers. I asked him about this very thing just the other day.

He was a big advocate of the high Yo-Yo. SO am I. The hammerhead leaves you WAY to vulnerable from an enemy lingering out of sight. The hammerhead also takes longer, and gives the enemy you are going after a LOT longer to get his wits about him.

A high Yo-Yo is performed similarly, but you pull up to about 40-60 degrees nose-high, bleed your e for alt, and roll left or right slowly, depending on torque and intent. Then, coordinate with rudders as you go over the top. I get to no less than 25kph in the 190 (any variant), and come into it at NO LESS than 450 kph. If you are not going this fast, you might as well go for an early snap-shot, then break of and re-engage him or someone else in a more favorable position.

This works best when you've approached from the 6, get in relatively close, and the enemy breaks into a level turn. count to 3, pull into the Yo-Yo, and check 6 for where the enemy went. If he stays in his turn, that's great! you want to go the same direction he did, but don't wait to long. Come around on your Yo-Yo, (you'll be going very fast again as you re-enter the enemy's turn area) and go for a high-angle shot. For an enemy with a slower rate-of-turn you may find yourself no more than 10-20 degrees of-tail. For an enemy with a high turn rate, you may end up as much as 60 degrees AOT. If you are more than this you lingered in your Yo-Yo to long. BTW, that's another reason the hammerhead is a weak trick, it takes to long and you end up coming in head-on. It may take 2-4 high Yo-Yo's against a fast rate-of-turn enemy, but you'll get him in the end, unless he fails to commit to his flat turn attack. If he bails out for another manuever, rethink you're attack. The most effective killing with this trick is to get a wingie to Yo-Yo on a guy with you. Between the two of you a T&B plane is easy prey to two 190s Yo-Yo-ing with E. :-)

The Fish

WB: -fish-

Xbuk posted 12-07-98 08:04 PM ET (US)

This sounds like a HH to me.. and in my opinion its the most effective move in WB..

jedi posted 12-08-98 09:02 PM ET (US)

Hehe sweeping generalization time...

In every plane in the game, there are aces, dweebs, ultra-dweebs, and...everyone else.

For the ace, it doesn't matter what plane it is, or how he flies it. The only thing that matters is how many guys he's up against. If you have enough guys to overwhelm his SA, you'll win. If not...well, everybody knows who these guys are (about 5% of WB'ers in my estimation). Too bad you don't find out you're fighting an ace until it's too late to escape ;-)

The dweebs (30% of WB'ers) just don't know how to fight their planes. They don't know how to BnZ, and don't know how to use flaps and throttle in a turnfighter, so they die a thousand deaths turning a plane that shouldn't or being outturned by a more clever dweeb in a plane that should. Many 190 and F4U drivers fall into this category, as well as a Spitdweeb or two ;-)

The ultradweebs (15% of WB'ers) learn a "trick" instead of learning to fight the plane properly. Then they just use their trick over and over and over. Guys who actively seek headons, and then just extend out of the fight or loop around to set up another headon instead of using their speed to energy-fight with, fall into the ultradweeb category in my book. Same thing with ackstars.

Then there's everyone else (50% of WB'ers). These guys know how they're supposed to fight their planes, but for one reason or other, they just can't control their dweebishness, or perhaps just haven't learned quite enough about their chosen plane to reach the next level. At the upper end of this spectrum are the guys who look like aces on the scorecard, and quack like aces on the BBS, but are really just smart and disciplined in their particular plane. Put them in a bad situation, or a plane that doesn't match the style they've mastered, and they die just like dweebs, but let them fly their way, and they're pretty hard to beat :-)

Which style is "best?" Well, you can't be an ace just because you want to. And being a dweeb may be fun, but it's not much of a challenge. As for ultradweebs, well, they're just vermin ;-) So that leaves "everyone else." Learn the proper tactics, and then learn to be disciplined and fight your plane realistically.

"Everything else is rubbish"

--jedi

DocDoom posted 12-07-98 09:18 PM ET (US)

"The Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch" has proved very popular with Wurger wranglers in this simulation we call WB. I wrote it specifically for you, so I guess that's no surprise ;]

Some copies left from the last print block. Go to:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dooms/guides.htm

Doc.

wulfer posted 12-28-98 09:40 PM ET (US)

I was flying a FW190 tonight. At one point I had another 190 D12-15 behind me but a couple thousand feet lower. I was climbing, and he was following at about co-speed (about 300-400kph. I eventually just dragged him through my friends and he was killed.

If I had been in a good turner like a Spit or Zeke, I would have turned to fight. But how could I have reversed my 190 (with the turning radius of a cv) without dropping a lot of E (in a turn), or losing my alt (in a split-s)? I have tried both a turn and a split-s in this situation before with no joy. The turn slows me so he can catch up (and he's already dangerously close), and the split-s puts me below him wasting all my alt advantage. Some 190 expert please tell me how to reverse my ship and get my guns pointed at my chaser in such a situation.

I feel so stupid for not being able to do this. I have altitude, but I'm pointed 180 degrees in the wrong direction (and he is pointed right at me properly).

wulfer

from out of nowhere! Check six ya'll!

Wells posted 12-28-98 09:58 PM ET (US)

Seeing as how he's below you, you could try for the spiral climb, or hammerhead.

IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 12-29-98 12:54 AM ET (US)

I woulda tried to do a hammerhead on the lower fw if I felt agressive at the time and was willing to take some pings or possibly get blown to pieces. (illustrated version at the roost under reversals here: www.geocities.com/timessquare/hangar/3461/index.html

Speed is essential in the wurger and it is more of an "attack" plane than a fighter due to its low speed (lack of) handling abilities compared with some of the other knife fighters out there. (spits, etc...) Therefore most of us out there should fly that sucker caustiously and attack when we have the advantage of speed, altitude, or both.

There are some guru's out there that do some amazing things with this bird and are very aggressive, but I usually have to ensure an advantage in order to kill and land in one piece.

The most effective reversals include a vertical element to gain altitude to convert into speed, however, you need to be very careful about the distance you keep from your nmy.

About d20 is as close as I'll let an enemy get before I attempt any offensive reversals, usually if they are closer I just cant get that sucker around fast enough to get a good burst off. Anything closer than d20 or so and I start to think of defense and extending to get a distance cushion before going offensive again and reversing, usually trying to do a vertical reversal to grab some alt for speed.

I have used scissors before, but alot of the times I leave myself open for nmy wingmen in the area. But that is a last ditch technique.

When low on E but with altitude I have used diving turns to keep speed up and get around for a shot, but diving isnt the preferred technique. Think of a split s but incorporating a horizontal element as well. I can usually get around fast enough to get a head on shot when a stubborn nmy is in pursuit, again, d20 is my drop dead distance.

Reversals for the wurger: Hammer head, wingover, high yo-yo, split s, take your pick bro. I'm sure you know all of them allready, but the ones to stick with when possible are the alt grabbing vertical reversals.

Anybody got any supersecret FAST reversals for the wurger????

Hope this helps bro, check out the roost, has alot of good basic information for driving the wurger. (graphics intensive)

C U above,

------------------

"Hey...nice cannons"

Idi

DocDoom posted 12-29-98 05:35 AM ET (US)

The "Luftwaffe Stomp" or Sliceback come to mind immediately. The "Half Cuban 8" works better than a Split-S, it keeps most of your altitude. A Pitchback if you have d20 seperation might also be considered, depending on the zoom ability of the attacker following you.

Finally, if the pilot chasing you is d20 behind you in THE SAME KIND OF PLANE, without the benefit of superior speed (you are as fast as they are) ... you could always use a low G pullup, and then bleed them with a wide looping climbing turn. They will stall about when you do, if you do it right, since they have no extra climb over your bird. Then you just drop on them while they wallow there recovering, and smack them for their trouble.

I personally love doing that ;]

Folks who have "The Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch" know all these moves, and a few more as well ;]

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

front posted 12-29-98 08:06 AM ET (US)

"The "Luftwaffe Stomp" or Sliceback come to mind immediately."

Yup, yup.

You talked about d12-d15? That is d9-d11 at the most to him. That is within 2.5 "gunnery range". Time to jink before a reversal.

I would have "slice-backed" him high to the right for about a thousand feet or 300 metres then shoved it all down hard into a curving pull back left and down into him.

As soon as I started turning I'd be using the back and up view to spot him then pull hard as I can (in the FW that is a masters touch so I'll decline to comment) or as comfortable with, to get my nose BELOW him at the ensuing merge.

He'll go right at me or over me... if he goes right at me then open up... let it all hang out. 'Cos I'm going on back up after him. Tight Immelman... no time for a lead turn (though I'd love one right now), tight as I can. In the FW190 I'd go oblique... watching that guy. If he goes up then I'll split for home. If he goes sideways or down I have now "reversed the bogey on my six". We are into a fight... so how good are my FW190 turnfighting skills? They are crap so I'll take a shot and leg it.

If he goes over me after my first sliceback then I'm down low and I'm out of the fight. Forget "reversing a bogey on yer six" and start looking for "exit stage left".

Jeez... think any of that will work Doc? :-)

cheers

front

DocDoom posted 12-29-98 08:28 AM ET (US)

That sounds like an aggressive approach. I reccomend aggression at all times in the Fw190. Lots of folks don't expect you to do anything but run the first sign of trouble ;]

Keep her fast, you can blow E as long as you force the bad guy to do the same, she accellerates like all hell when you need her to ;]

Learn the instantaneous "lag to lead" snapshot, the "neg-G unload and roll" ... the rudder assisted barrel roll vertical moves .. learn to shoot deflection at all angles of crossing the nose from d6 down to d1 ... learn how to turn your opponent "inside out" when you need some room for seperation and they are behind your wingline.

Learn to "spoof" them with fakeouts, and with all of this, you'll have a reasonable show of making their blood boil, and their use of channel 100 go up about 5 notches ;]

You might even start bagging a few Spitfires and the like that should never have got themselves killed ;]

Hey, it's a lousy job, but someone has to do it ;]

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

front posted 12-29-98 08:43 AM ET (US)

Doc writes:

:That sounds like an aggressive approach. I reccomend aggression at all times in the Fw190. Lots of folks don't expect you to do anything but run the first sign of trouble ;]

A guy hanging on my six at d12-d15 means he is within just that enough guns range to make me start sweating. What am I gonna do? For me I'd leg the bejesus out of that FW... all the way to a nice high ally while calmly typing "draggin" on the radio. However... do I pay $2 an hour or whaterver to run?

Wulfer said that he was climbing slightly. I would sliceback up right and back at him for that reversal if I CHOOSE to reverse (or try to) reverse him.

:Keep her fast, you can blow E as long as you force the bad guy to do the same, she accellerates like all hell when you need her to ;]

What ya mean there? A 'shallow' sliceback? Maybe nose down from wulfers slight climb and build up a little speed before the sliceback? That would allow me some more extension out beyond that d12-d15 range to begin my move...

:Learn the instantaneous "lag to lead" snapshot,

I read about a guy who put "rudder assisted gunnery marks" beyond his regular gunsight marks to the left and right. They let him know how much yaw he could get for the snapshot as he roared past the bogey.

cheers

front

DocDoom posted 12-29-98 12:01 PM ET (US)

Front spoketh: I read about a guy who put "rudder assisted gunnery marks" beyond his regular gunsight marks to the left and right. They let him know how much yaw he could get for the snapshot as he roared past the bogey.

You *do* use my Doomsday Drop'em Dead Deflection Gunsight (made for the Fw190) don't you ? ;]

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

fats posted 12-29-98 06:42 PM ET (US)

For cool Fw 190 stuff, find Twisted's lecture on AW's Fw 190. Most of the things hold true for WB as well.

&fats

Kodiak posted 12-29-98 08:32 PM ET (US)

Yes Virginia, there is more than extend HO extend HO extend HO........

lazs posted 12-30-98 09:24 AM ET (US)

Flew the FW in the combat arena... It's been a while since i flew it (as opposed to against it) Boils down to this... D20 is too close if the guy behind you is good. Run for ack or friendlies. The FW spins easily and this is actually it's strength in WB.. all fancy moves by the WB FW are just controlled spins. learn to do them. learn to choose your fight.

lazs

roan posted 12-30-98 10:13 AM ET (US)

Hey Doc....

can ya send me a copy of your gunsite and an explanation of its use (ya got my e-mail address)? please? pretty please?

I'm in 2d low res if you have one of that version.

Thanks...the LW iron is not adjusting to my flying style very well... guess I'll have to learn to fly.

roan