Posted by: holst-FT

Message: After reading several accounts of mid to late war engagements with bf109s written by p51 pilots, I was intrigued enough with their claims of outmaneuvering the 109 that I checked hoof's performance page. Lo and behold, the p51 can out turn not only the bf109k but the bf109g as well, both initial and sustained! How did the 51 get the "don't turn this plane" reputation? Granted its pretty highly wingloaded, but it turns inside its contemporary German competition...(well I'm presuming that if it can out turn a 109g, it can out turn a 190a4, both of which were in service earlier than the 51d). Not only that, its stall/spin characteristics are docile, at least compared to 190s, 109s, and corsairs. Almost spit like I'd say. So how was this rep earned? It seems that in the war, 51 pilots really did drag 109s and 190s to the deck then turn em to death!

holst-FT

Posted by: jedi

Message: The Stang's WB rep was earned the hard way by a lot of guys who started playing the game thinking the 51 really was "the best piston-engined fighter of WW2" (like about 6 or 7 other "bests") and made the mistake of flying it into the massive Spit-balls that are generally all over the arena. The guys who swear by the Stang are the ones who know how to pick their fights and how to maximize its good qualities without exposing its bad ones.

If you must turnfight, intelligent use of the flaps make it a good match 1v1 against the FWs and 109s, and the 51B can even give the Spit a run for its money, especially if the 51 driver is pretty good and the Spit driver is simply relying on turning. The problem comes when you've dispatched the first 109 or Spit, and you're at 150 knots at 500 feet, and you see the second Spit or 109 3000 feet above you at 300 knots.

Of course that's a problem no matter what you're flying ;-)

--jedi

Posted by: Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Message: Look, a couple of things to remember...

1. By the time the P-51D was in combat, the average U.S. fighter pilot had about 5 times as many hours as the average LW fighter pilot in training time before he went into combat. That is a huge factor, in terms of both skill and aggressiveness.

2. By the time the P-51D was in combat, there was rarely a 1 on 1 fight to be found in the skies over Europe. The most common odds were probably 2-4 LW fighters being pursued low by 12 U.S.A.F. fighters.

3. Any LW pilot with a grain of common sense/self preservation instinct was going to avoid engaging Allied fighters like the plague.

Tens, hundreds of thousands of German civilians were being killed on a weekly basis by Allied air attacks - and the P-51D was not the most lethal weapon from a LW pilots point of view. All those pilots on both sides were professionals and they gave a damn about landing. A LW pilot was going to attack the level bombers and get the hell out of the area. Maybe, *maybe* if he caught some Allied fighters in a disadvantageous position, or if his *mission* was to engage Allied fighters, he would attack them. But it's a safe bet that 70% of the LW fighters in the air at any given time were out to kill B-17s, B-24s, etc. Think about it from a strategic standpoint - for every bomber you kill, you cost the enemy 4 engines and 10 trained aircrew. A fighter is one engine and 1 aircrew.

On the other side, the U.S.A.F. fighter pilots did not enjoy getting on the deck over occupied Europe, especially P-51D pilots - a radiator hit to a P-51D from a MG bullet was probably a trip to a POW camp. There was AAA *all over the place*. If you look at Allied fighter losses per squadron between late 1943 and the end of WW2 (and there was a frighteningly high turnover rate among these pilots), about 60% of the aircraft lost were to AAA. Not until 1945 (where you are talking about 50 to 1 odds in the air in favor of the Allies) did U.S.A.F. fighters roam the deck over Germany with impunity.

...so if you read an account of a P-51D turning inside a Bf 109 on the deck and killing him, you can bet that the P-51D had been on his '6' for a long long time, probably had an energy advantage and an odds advantage, and probably also had a better/more experienced pilot at the controls. From flying WB for 3 years or so, a good Bf 109 driver can kill a P-51D on the deck. Then again, a good P-51D driver can cause a reverse result just as often. I love the P-51D versus the Bf 109/Fw 190 matchup maybe more than any other in Warbirds. Why? Because pilot skill is often what determines the fight - in neither the Bf 109, Fw 190, or P-51D can you 'haul on the stick and get out of trouble'.

The number one thing to avoid for a thinking individual playing WB is to compare anything to do with the MA of WB to real life WW2 air combat.

Don't think I am calling you stupid in any way, I have done the same thing about a million times myself.

But in general, teamwork, positioning, pilot skill/experience, and odds were what mattered in real life (how did the F4F survive against A6Ms, etc.). Aircraft performance was secondary to these factors.

Try it in the dueling arena - 2 really good wingmen in Bf 109s/Fw 190s/P-51Ds can beat 4 average pilots who don't fly as a team. And it's not because of turn radius.

See you up there,

Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Posted by: No.6 (-bcnu-) CO Eagle Squadrons

Message: Good historical points ... but I disagree about some of them. If pilots found the enemy at a disadvantage they went in if their mission didn't absolutely prohibit it (like 110 "too-close escorts" of Ju88s in the BoB). Also in early '44 the air war was not a done deal ... but you're right, Goering's directive was for fighters to ignore escort and atttack the bombers only. I note that WB's JG14 does not repeat this error ...

You're also right in that pilot quality and particularly team flying ability is critical.

However, in a evenly matched 1v1...

a newbie 51 pilot will probably lose to the 109 and the FW flown by newbies due to ignorance of the 51's abilities.

an average 51 pilot will probably beat the FW but lose to the 109 if the German is average.

a veteran 51 pilot will have a tough equal fight against veteran FW and 109 pilots.

an ace 51 pilot will probably beat ace FW and 109 pilots. The 51 has some masterful tricks up its sleeve...

Posted by: Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Message: ...but there's no way you can expect a die hard Fw 190 or Bf 109 guy in WB to agree with you about an "ace P-51 pilot probably beating an ace Fw 190 or Bf 109 pilot...".

WB is direct competition. The day someone can admit to themselves that they would 'probably lose' is the day that they *will* lose.

All logic would say that a Ki-84 IA could hammer a P-51D with equal pilot skills, energy, etc. There is no way I would expect any guy in the 4th F.G. to ever agree with this.

I could argue that the Fw 190 and Bf 109 are both cannon armed, so a good shot could end things for the P-51D right after the merge, regardless of evasives performed by the P-51D (remember, really extreme evasives cost you energy). But I won't - that would be stupid.

99% of winning a close fight is often being convinced that you are going to win it.

That's why in the spirit of mutual respect you will never catch me saying that "a Fw 190 will beat a P-51D because...". There are just too many factors.

The bottom line (well, one of them) historically is that by the time the P-51D was in wide usage, the average guy flying a P-51D had numbers and training/experience on his side.

Does this mean the P-51D was an inferior aircraft? Absolutely not. But if you read accounts of the rare instances where you had 2 guys run into each other all alone and both of them knew what they were doing and their aircraft could do, the results were never a 'probably', or a 'usually', or an 'almost never'. It was generally as close to a toss up as things ever get in real life.

Speaking of that, isn't it kind of weird how the really hot pilots rarely died in fighter versus fighter combat? A huge % of them died in mid air collisions with a new wingman, a freak accident resulting in a crash, etc.

Nishizawa died when he was caught by Allied fighters while flying a transport aircraft.

Bong died in a crash after the war.

Etc., etc., etc.

See you guys up there,

Mike ('wulfie', 2./JG 14)

Posted by: fd-ski S/L Squadron 303 (Polish) RAF

Message: : Interesting. I don't flyt he hog much, but now that you mention it, it does have nasty stall/spin characteristics. Whihc is very interesting because someone at the museum (who has flown all these planes) said the Corsair was VERY easy to fly. Certainly more so than the P-40, and I beleive he said it was easier than the 51. Of course, he also insists that it doesn't have that much torque, so I don't know if I beleive him there, I bet he limited his Manifold Pressure and that's why it seemed so tame. But, he did say the Hog was easy and docile.

F4U was designed to fly from the carriers, which it didn't do, at least not in numbers. As soon as they realized how bad slow speed characteristics of hog were, they gave it to Marines.....

Quote:

"...harmony of controls was poor, ...... Stalling characteristics were very poor. The pilot received little warning ......

At the stall, the right wing dropped sharply and an incipient spin developed...As a deck-landing aircraft the Corsair left so much to be desired that the US Navy handed it over to the Marines for shore duty. The problems it presented for shipboard use were the terrible view, sluggish aileron and elevator control on the approach, propensity to torque stalling.....even landing ashore the Corsair, despite its tailwheel lock, was plagued by directional instability......"

"Duels in the sky"

Eric Brown

( flew 487 different aqircraft as a test pilot in the WW II era )

: The stang prolly has docile stall/spins because it's a North American. The T-6, T-28, T-2, OV-10 were all known for being VERY docile, and Norht American was the best aircraft manufacterer ever to grace the air, so I'd beleive the stang had docile stalls.

I don't know about VERY doctile....

"The Mustang had a rate of roll bettered only by that of the FW 190, and with a much gentler stal than that of a German fighter it was highly manouverable..."

Please note that author refers to high speed manouverability. He didn't go into detail on slow speed characteristics and he's write up of P51 is somewhat short.

"The FW-190D-9 preserved all the superb handling characteristics of the earlier verions......"

Once again, author only mentions high speed handling...

All the quotes from "Duels in the sky" by Eric Brown

On the Mustangs turning abilities:

"According to the Experten, the Mustang was faster and more manouverable then Messerschmitt above 20,000 ft, but below 15,000 ft the Mustang's advantage disappeared. The Me 109 did have one adventage over Mustang at any altitude: The Messerschmitt could be pulled into a tight turn and just keep pulling; slats popped out and buffeting began, but it kept flying. The Mustang, on the other hand, exhibited high-speed stall/tuck tendencies in this manouver..."

"Messerschmitt Aces"

Walter Musciano

I hope this helps...

fd-ski

Posted by: Jagdgeschwader 27 Afrika

Message: During all SL's and WW's, every time we JG27 met Ponies low on the deck with our 109K or G we shot them down easily. I definitely dont think that in WB P51's are more maneuverable than 109. At very high alt its a different matter, the Pony really shines, but not in climbing ability. Probably on the deck her behaviour is better and more docile than the 190A4.

Personally, I had been so lucky to fly in a double seater Pony in Wanaka, NZ. "Miss Torque" her name, she was a silver red tailed 1945 P51D. Well, when the pilot took the stick again after me and my boring turns, he did everything a WarBirder would like to try, and almost ALL low and slow on the deck: Immelmann, Barrel Roll, Split-Ess (not so low), Hammerhead and so on. Her maneuverability was astonishing ..... We buzzed the tower at 300mph: try it and you'll never moan about WB nose bounces, believe me ..

Gatt JG27

Posted by: -Kumo-

Message: Gatt, The P51 in WB is definitely a better turner than any of the 190's and is better than the 109g's and 109k. I have flown the pony for a year and a half and this is a fact. The only way for a 109g or 109k to beat a pony in a 1 on 1 co-alt turnfight is to make all manuevers nose up. In flat turns the pony is is tighter. Low speed roll rate also favors the 109. Any 190 1 on 1 in a turnfight against a pony should be meat. The 190a4 is a good fight though. The a8 can only hope for a snap shot in the first turn or it is over for him. The dora has no chance except to run away. I haven't flown the B model P-51 much. but my impression is that it can turn much better than the D model which I have been discussing

Kumo

Posted by: wells

Message:

The problem with the 109 is that it had no rudder trim and stick forces were heavy. It also had those stupid slats that popped out automatically at a certain AoA and increased the G forces felt by the pilot. If the plane was not perfectly coordinated in a turn (hard to do at high speeds in the 109), one slat would deploy before the other one, making a loud 'BANG!' and scaring the crap out of the pilot, not to mention screwing with the controls and any gunsight solution the pilot may have had. I think alot of 109 pilots were reluctant to pull that many G's (especially the inexperienced ones) to get the most out of the aircraft. In WB, the extra lift from the slats is modelled, but they don't deploy as they would have on the real aircraft. I also think the P-51 had a larger advantage at altitude over the 109, and they were pretty much equal below about 15k. It doesn't take much of a speed or altitude advantage to give the upper hand in a combat situation. I highly doubt that most of the accounts that we read occured where both aircraft came at each other with equal speed at the same altitude.

wells

Posted by: ik Jagdgeschwader 77

Message:

Hmmmm....In a 109k vs p51 turn fight, the pilot who is better at riding the stall will win. It's really very close, and the same goes for the 190a4. Don't believe EVERYTHING you read on hoof's page, especially the sustained turn chart. Use it as a guideline only. hoof himself states that. A 109g will eat a p51 for lunch in a turnfight. I've done it myself many times to foolish p51 pilots who think a 109 cant turn. The warbirds p51 is also much easier to fly slow than a real p51. It ranks high in my book (from what i've read) in the category of how much easier it is to fly in wb than it was in RL. The p51's stall was NASTY. Laminar wings are terrible for stall fighting, and ANYTHING can outroll a p51 at stall speed. I believe that when p51 pilots talk of outmaneuvering 109s it is during highspeed maneuvers, which the p51 does better at.

Also, watch out for the 190a4. Good pilots will out turn mustangs in one also.

I fly the 109k a lot, and when a p51 trys to stall fight me, i become overjoyed and start drueling. Even if he does close the distance, the 109k can just go vertical like a rocket, with little or no previous speed and leave the p51 floundering below. I think the same would be true for the 109g-10.

If you want to beat a 109 with a p51, keep it fast. Make high speed slashing passes and use e conserving, low g maneuvers.

Also, in a multi vs multi fight everything changes. Turning doesnt matter so much, and high speed becomes a prime concern, which they p51 has in spades over a 109g6, or 190a. Only a 109g10, 109k4, or 190d are worth their mustard in a multi vs multi fight against the p51. I spent quite a lot of time practicing in 2 vs 2 duels with the 190d vs the p51 back during the squad tourney. The two doras won every time, becuase we rolled better, were faster, could go vertical better, and had better firepwer. However at above 20,000 feet, i'll say the advantage switches back to the p51 vs the dora.

In a multi vs multi fight between p51s and 109k's at low altitude, i'd say the p51s have the advantage due to their higher speed and superior high speed handling characteristics. However above 20k the advantage goes to the 109ks as they are faster, have far superior powerloading, and will close the distance to use those big guns. Above 20k high speed handling isnt so important anyway since IASpeeds arent so fast.

hope this helps,

and btw, it was the p47 which was described as "scary" by many lw pilots.

I was thinking that the 190a4 is actually quite good in the multi vs multi fight against the p51, below 15k. It's firepower is far superior, which offsets it's inferior speed, and it rolls much better too. The 190a8 is a dog 8-D

ik