Posted by: eeyore

Message:

I know that I'm a dumb newbie, but this is an important question to be answered since I spend a good deal of time in my chute. I was under the impression that even if it was possible, pilots just don't do that. However, the last two mornings that I flew, I appeared to be shot in my chute after being humiliated in the air. I'm floating down, thinking I need Velcro for my tail and I see 20mm tracers and then heaven. I've never seen that before. I would appreciate clarification from the elders on proper etiquette.

eeyore

Posted by: Kodiak

Message:

...A lone German pilot stands up in the hostile room and clears his throat. Hi, my name is Kodiak and I have strafed chutes.....

I dont make it a habit and in general agree that its dweebish and dispicable behavior. Here are the RARE instances where I can do it absolutely guilt free;

(1) There is one certain pilot who went out of his way to destroy the last gasps of the 1.11 arena. I have never seen anything so vandalous done in WB. In addition I have never ever seen him do anything but ackstar or jabo and auger. Never. I will go out of my way to shoot him where I find him and whenever I find him. Under silk included and will cheer every time he pops. Even if it cleared my streak and zeroed my score and kicked me off the server I would do it. Thats how much disdain I have for this one particular dweeb.

(2) There have been rare instances, and I mean rare, when additional "emphasis" has been called for. Example - a guy comes scorching through 10 possible targets into undamaged base ack just to vulch my wingman who is rolling down the runway. The guy isnt dropping bombs, has not a single fighter to help him, and has no hope of survival. He just wants a quick vulch kill and my wingman is the target. He knows he is going to be bounced and killed or ack will toast him. As my wingman sits in the tower wishing the dweeb into WB hell he limps away smoking. If he gets the chance to bail he isnt going to make it to the ground. I would rather give him a 20mm enema to emphasise his error in judgement than patiently discuss it with him on private.

Flame away,

Posted by: Rifle 401 RCAF Rams

Message: I think that as the scoring system gets tweaked and it becomes more recognized that bailing successfully keeps streaks going, you are going to see an increase of this.

ie - so-and-so just bailed - hey he's got a good streak going, let's terminate him and the streak. Not ethical, but it is a game after all.

Cheers,

Rifle

Posted by: miko--

Message:

First of all, it is POSSIBLE to shoot a chute so IMagic people planned for someone to do just that. Second, with the new scores system a successfull bail does not interrupt your kill streak and the longer your kill streak is, the higher bonus you get every for kill. With huge streak it makes sence to bail after the slight damage or even when owerwhelmed/out of ammo and escape is not likely rather then try to risk fighting/running away or landing a damaged plane!

Third, why don't you object to someone shooting a plane that is trying to ditch or land? Isn't it the same thing as shootung a chute?

If I have my gear down, I am as well out of action as if I were under the chute.

P.S. I've never shot at the chute myself, so do not bother to flame me. I wish, though, IMagic made chutes invulnerable and caused bails to interrupt the winning streak

Posted by: eeyore

Message:

: Third, why don't you object to someone shooting a plane that is trying to ditch or land? Isn't it the same thing as shootung a chute? If I have my gear down, I am as well out of action as if I were under the chute.

Isn't it different because someone has already been awarded a kill? If you are ditching or landing that is that the case? I don't think so. It seems that the only reason to do it is spitefulness (not wanting another pilots streak to continue). Rather poor form don't you think?

eeyore

Posted by: fd-ski S/L Squadron 303 (Polish) RAF

Message:

My squadmate took an oil hit last night over f13 from the ack, and bailed out. While he was in the chute, i observed two reds making passes at him. I didn't quite believe that anyone would waste ammo on a chute ( aside of the ethical part of it ). I asked him, and sure enough, they were shooting his chute....

There was spit and 51 there. I killed a spit and his nickname was GAMEID. P51 saw me coming and hauled ass. He must have figured out I was pissed after seeing the way i dispatched his friend......there was a big boom and nothing :)

It's stupid, and not honorable. People who do it, should be playing quake not WB. Yes, it was done in WWII in some instances, but relativelly rarely, and it was usually punished...

fd-ski

Posted by: Stiglr Stab JG5

Message:

I'll admit to having strafed a few chutes.... but in *every* case, it was because the dweeb was 1)modem-monkeying 2)ackstarring 3)stick-spazzing or 4) in some other way gaming the game and I was working out my aggression on him.

I also admit it was stupid, because I was risking a collision with an otherwise harmless chute (and a few times I did collide with a chute!). What I *should* do is mercilessly taunt the dweeb on 100. That seems to be even more demoralizing.

Posted by: Janneh I/JG-3 'Udet'

Message:

cc that !

Well I've been killed when in chute py PURPLE !

And about 1 min after, my squadmate killed same way

and by PURPLE !

So I quess it doesn't matter what country u fly for ...

Anyway it's pathetic to shoot chutes :(

Posted by: avin

Message: : My squadmate took an oil hit last night over f13 from the ack, and bailed out. While he was in the chute, i observed two reds making passes at him.

Maybe this one will get through.

Main point: newbies think all chutes need to be killed to prevent a field from being captured. Don't assume the worst.

avin

Posted by: Topcat (RAF, Duxford Wing)

Message: : There was spit and 51 there. I killed a spit and his nickname was....

It's not good to kill people in chutes, but IMO it's also not good to hold others up as bad examples in a public forum, for a number of reasons but particularly because he may be a newbie and not used to the community here.

Posted by: Otto CO 111th FG (-oooo-)

Message:

: I always avoid commments on Dweebish behavior (Don't throw the first stone...) But this trully is!!!

The only reasonable explinations I know of, it that he may have his Icon set to "range only", and thounght you were still an aircraft.

Don't be upset, it's not "normal" WB's behavior.

Otto

Posted by: =ram1=

Message:

Not much you can do once you are in your chute, your .45 isn't even loaded anymore [2.5 first releases]. All I can say is keep track of who is doing this, so when you eventually shoot them down, you can feel a sense of redemption.

One suggestion is to wait as long as you can until you bail. The higher up you are the more chance this will happen. Most guys do not shoot chutes, there are some who do, such is life.

=ram1=

Posted by: Kergan (VMF-214)

Message: It happens.

There's no reason behind it happening, but some schmucks do strafe chutes.

Proper ettiquette: don't do it.

burbank posted 01-09-99 05:40 AM ET (US)        

I came across this today. I got a surprise, so I thought I'd post it for comment.

This excerpt is from an unpublished manuscript I am preparing for publication.

"Fighter Pilot Memiors 1939-1945" by Flt. Lt W. Thomas, an Australian in RAAF 451 Squadron operating Spitfire IX's, and based in Corsica in 1944. This episode occured over Italy. They were in combat with 3 Bf 109's:

quote:

We were now down to about 2000 ft. from an initial point of contact of about 8000 ft. Dropping back once again I noticed him roll onto his back - to attempt a half roll away I thought. Well, if you are game to half roll from 2000 ft., good luck to you I thought, but I'll pick you up down lower at my leisure. However, it was not to half roll, but to bale out, that he had adopted that position. Hello, I thought, I've frightened him out of it, though one of our other pilots said later he had seen cannon strikes in the cockpit area, so maybe I had hurt him. Completing another circle I found myself bearing down on the parachuting pilot and in accordance with my training I was about to open fire when some instinct made me hesitate. In the meantime the other two German pilots had also baled out (of their Bf 109's).

My hesitation arose from the knowledge that many of the other pilots in the squadron did not have the hard training of the Desert, and after all, I had to live with them, and did not fancy the idea of being ostracised. So it was self preservation rather than soft heartedness that made me pause. To settle the question, I called up the C.O. "What about the chaps in the 'chutes?" The answer came back, "Shoot the bastards". By this time I had passed my man and had to complete another circuit, but before I got round "Donk" Bray called up, "I can't do it Boss". That settled it. We reformed and headed for home. It turned out that it was not Ed Kirkham who replied to my query, but the Rhodesian C.O. of No. 237 Squadron who was somewhere within radio range at the time. Though I was able to claim a victory I was pleased that I hadn't shot a man in his 'chute. In spite of training, it would have left a nasty stain on my conscience.

burbank

Xbuk posted 01-09-99 08:40 AM ET (US)            

Neat!! Good Work!!

I alwase wondered if chute killing was common. Dose anyone know if this was a regular tactic?

------------------

-X-buk -=BS=- BYA

Gryf posted 01-09-99 09:46 AM ET (US)            

I also read in the Book about JG 26 that it was common for German Pilots to wait until they were 200 meters or lower to open their chutes for fear of being shot on a longer time on the silk.

But hey, it still pisses me off when I get whacked in the chute. That's ok, cause then I know who I can whack

Michael Weber

=Gryf=

CO Rogue Gryffons -BYA-

danish TWV posted 01-09-99 10:46 AM ET (US)            

It is my impression that chute killing of german pilots was not uncommon.

As far as I remember Col. Raymond F. Toliver, usaf (ret.) & Trevor J. Constable "Fighter Aces of the Luftwaffe" states that there was directly orders to shoot pilots from downed jets.Further in the same book it says that LW had a strict policy *not* to shoot allied pilots.This should have roots in Goerings WW1 conducts.

The excerpt from "Fighter Pilot Memiors 1939-1945" by Flt. Lt W. Thomas fits nicely in the row of chute-killed german pilots (also non-jet such) when reading books around the subject.

danish

Edit: hmm, rereading the above makes it obvious for me that it could be understood in such a way that chute killing only was done by allies.This is not intentionally, however the fault is mine alone.

This fenomenen occured at all participans of the war.

itmo Lelv24 posted 01-09-99 10:57 AM ET (US)            

umm. strategically shooting defending pilots in the chutes makes sense. after all. Hartmann was shot how many times? maybe if the first guy had shot him in his chute allies would have had 200 planes to spare=) i dont mean its fair or humane but.

I dont recall finnish pilots being shot at nor shooting red pilots in their chutes. but it was common practise for finns to trick

reds into making a break and then (while they

give open canopy shot) put bullets into their cockpit.

Paul Bradford posted 01-09-99 12:33 PM ET (US)            

Was watching a programme on the Discovery channel the other week about the 8th airforce. They were talking to a P51 pilot who was escorting B17's to their target.

He Said that as he saw the crew of a B17 Bail out, a lone 109 openend fire on something which he couldn't make out. Yep you've guessed it. It was one of it's crew members helplessly dangling on the end of his chute being pepperd by this 109.

The 51 pilot couldn't believe it so he went after the 109, scoring numerous hits. The 109 couldn't shake him so decided his only option was to hit the silk.

On doing so the 51 pilot decided to give him a taste of his own medicine. He quoted:

" As you can imagine, 6x50cal guns can do a lot of damage to a soft tissue target".

How Nice!

cheers

G-PAUL

Bren posted 01-09-99 12:42 PM ET (US)            

During the siege of Malta it would be a common occurance to have pilots shot in their 'chutes, strafed in their rafts and shot down while in rescue planes.

I've read a Lancaster pilot's accounts of an ME109 shooting at the seven crewmembers of a fellow Lancaster that was shot down over Germany.

SnakeEyes posted 01-09-99 01:50 PM ET (US)            

I would suspect that an allied policy of shooting at LWs in their chutes is directly related to the fact that they were bailing over friendly territory and might soon fly again.

Similarly, I would suspect that German policy (to not shoot) was heavily influenced by the fact that an allied pilot downed over Germany was almost assuredly going to spend the rest of the War in a prison camp.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

XO Fourth Fighter Group

Olli posted 01-09-99 02:48 PM ET (US)            

I have never shot a chute !

Thog posted 01-09-99 03:04 PM ET (US)            

I don't shoot people in chutes (it's on my short list of obnoxious behaviors), but I do find it perversly fun to shoot someone down, then do a fast run at them and a wingroll as I fly by.... <g> I'm sure it looks like "the SOB is going to shoot me!", but it reality, I'm just being a putz, not an as*hole....<EG>

Thog, 100th FBG, The Haze

kenny posted 01-09-99 04:10 PM ET (US)            

this is what starts the snowball effect. it is quite possible, but typical hollywood, to believe that the 109 pilot shooting the bomber crews in their chutes had a close comrade shot down in his chute. this would require that persons death to be avenged, and so on and so on. i bet if Galland was told his 2 brothers were kilt in their chutes he wood be very tempted.

wars are never clean, but the moment u make it dirty, it can only get darker.

Kodiak posted 01-09-99 04:47 PM ET (US)            

My understanding is that it was more "common" to shoot pilots who would land in their own territory. If you didnt they might be back tomorrow shooting you down. If they would surely be captured it was considered a waste of time.

In WB there are only a few instances where chute shooting is valid IMO. First is where a guy pulls an particularly dweeby or obnoxious stunt (porpoises, stick stirs, vulches your wingman through main field ack then bails, repeated suicide jabo/auger/replane/repeat sorties etc). A little 13mm to emphasize his dweebdom is just fine :-) The other case would be a bit stickier. In a scenario like the current BoB living is critical. If a German pilot bails over England he loses one of his lives. If a Brit bails there he loses only 1/2 (?) life. I havnt done it and havnt seen anyone else do it but...it would be perfectly reasonable for a German pilot to hammer a chute over Biggin Hill to convert his opponent to "dead". Wouldnt make many friends that way though :-)

Kodiak III./JG54

fdiron posted 01-09-99 05:06 PM ET (US)            

I also saw on the discovery channel where a 109 had been shooting at several b17 crew members in there parachutes. A P51 pilot intentionally shot the 109 enuff to make the pilot bail out. His quote was "6 machine guns firing 950 rounds a minute can really tear a guy up." I think this was the same episode as mentioned above. Also, in a book about the cactus airforce, which was the squadron based on Guadalcanal, some japanese pilots would bail out then unattach from there parachutes. U.S. pilots fighting near Rabaul would also shoot japanese pilots in there parachutes so that they couldnt fight again if they were rescued.

syke posted 01-09-99 06:21 PM ET (US)            

Snakeyes wrote:

Similarly, I would suspect that German policy (to not shoot) was heavily influenced by the fact that an allied pilot downed over Germany was almost assuredly going to spend the rest of the War in a prison camp.

There's a passage in "The First and the Last" where Galland is responding to Goering's order to straffe chutes: "Why that would be murder! I would do everything in my power to disobey such an order!"

Given that, I've read so many cases of Germans straffing Allied chutes, that while maybe there was no official policy, it was common practice and the Luftwaffe did little, if anything, to discourage the practice.

syke

ara posted 01-09-99 08:19 PM ET (US)            

In real war I can see how the deed, tho distastefull can be view as necessary to help out the war effort..

In Warbirds.. I see it as neither distastfull or necessary.. If a chute appears in front of me.. I'll often squirt of a quick MG shot.. what's the big deal?.. I'm not sending any messages with it.. it's a target practice opertunity to me..... and if someone shoots my chute.. I dont get any messages.. other than.. "You have just been shot)..

Life is too short to get wrapped up in exactly what form your virtual death comes in....

(just MHO)

Ara--- CFI 401 RCAF Rams

funked posted 01-09-99 08:23 PM ET (US)            

I have read numerous accounts of all sides (Britain, US, Germany, Japan) shooting chutes and being shot down in chutes. Also many accounts of ground soldiers on both sides executing prisoners. War is a bitch! When someone has just finished trying to kill you and your buddies it is very common to want to finish the job. There is no referee to call "Time Out."

Now as far as in WB, I like to shoot a chute every once in a while. If a guy was doing something particularly obnoxious like vulching or stick-yanking, I'll put some lead in him if the opportunity presents itself. Saves him a few $ getting him back to the tower quicker anyways!

------------------

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Tahoe posted 01-10-99 12:27 AM ET (US)            

For the first time today, I shot at a chute. I'm not proud, but I was frustrated. (A gold spit was does a warp vanishing act, and then pings me. I'm not saying it was his fault about the warp, but it DID happen.

My point is, I saw one hit on the chute, he didn't die, but started shooting back! (red tracer). Since when can you shoot the pistol when under silk in this version of WB? My pistol seems to be without ammo!

kapsyl posted 01-10-99 03:23 AM ET (US)            

I´m not absolutely certain but i believe i´ve read somewhere that a british CO said to his men that if he found out that anyone of them had strafed a chute over british soil he would have the culprit courtmartialed.

kapsyl "The Haze"

lb posted 01-10-99 06:05 AM ET (US)            

Okay most US pilots that flew in WWII where either commissioned officers or Mustangs. And as an officer you are obligated to be a gentelman so the act of shooting chutes would constitute a non-gentelman act which can have you court-martialed.

If it was over allied territorry the downed pilot would be considered a pow and therefore must be afforeded his rights under the convention.

If he bails over friendly territory then by bailing that concludes the fight.

I understand that there were commanders that advocated the practice but so where others that advocated the pillaging of towns/villages and the execution of pow's. But that does not make it right and the JAG personal have proceeded to file cases aginst such culprits. Some ended in resignations others in an actual jail term.

As for Germany all downed allied pilots where a source of information to the intelligence community. And to expend such resourses would be a waste of said resourses.

Talk about being a dweeb this practice is #1 in my book!

LB

Over and out!!

bossan posted 01-10-99 11:00 AM ET (US)            

Seems to me, that we have a quandry here.As in real life, we are hearing different views on the subject.As in hisotry, so it is here also, that some do,some dont. I personally tried it once, and didnt bother to try again.Why?What does it serve?We ALL can hit the "fly" button again.In history, you might live, you might die.

ara has a good point about "in which form your virtual death comes in".

I have been in the silk often enough, but have had 1 ping pilot kills also, so whether its in a chute or a A6M, it matters not.I did however hear lastnight of someone flying INTO a chute, and dyeing because of it.HA, served him right.

As for the pistol.I pulled my D-ring so hard that the jerk of the harness kicked out my map,chocolate bars, and my clip!!!

Kats posted 01-10-99 11:08 AM ET (US)            

Once Imol fixes the streak multiplyer in the scoring system, killing chutes will have an affect on score in the game. You will be taking away their streak---kind of mean but considering how many times a chute has taken out my plane.....makes me want to get even

DrSoya RAF303 posted 01-10-99 03:10 PM ET (US)            

Personnally, I see no point in killing chutes. What's the logic behind that? Why expend valuable ammo when it doesn't even award you a kill?

I, for one, am quite satisfied with myself when I bring down a plane with the less ammo possible. When I see I got the other plane's tail with a short burst, and I see it spinning to the ground, I go look for another target: there is absolutely no sense in putting more lead in a plane that is already going down. I won't do it, even to secure my kill. (I think the damage model should consider damage done to vital parts rather than total lead put into a target.)

Ammo is too valuable to waste it, be it on a plane already going down or on a chute.

Sylvain Chamberland

F/O DrSoya Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF

raf303.warbirds.org

Warrdog posted 01-10-99 07:02 PM ET (US)            

Its was common to straffe LW chutes,as the LW pilots where not on a rotation like allied pilots,they remained in service till they died or got real good.Ya kill a good pilot in the chute & it would be impossible to replace him.

Once the good pilots are gone the rest are easy meat.

wulfer posted 01-11-99 11:12 AM ET (US)            

War is Hell. It is fought for real, life or death.

WarBirds is a game. It is fought for simulation, fun and score.

Regarding this subject, whether the deed was done in real life war or not is irrelevant to the WB game.

There is no redeeming reason to shoot bailers in WB. It does not give the shooter any bonus or award. It merely screws the bailer.

Regardless of whether the bailer was an obnoxious dweeb, shooting him in his chute only perpetuates the foolishness. Obnoxious dweebs don't learn "oh, I shouldn't do such and such" by you shooting him in his chute.

It may however give him another idea for obnoxious behavior to commit on another player.

In WarBirds, there simply is no reason for killing a bailing pilot. No historical/realism reason. No game reason. No moral reason. No fun reason. If you do it, you simply are being a jerk.

Fortunately, I have not been the target of a chute shooter. I hope I never am. I do not shoot bailing pilots, and I never will.

If you ever shoot a bailer, or ever condone it, you have no right to complain about ackstars, warpers, suicide jabos, or any of the other dweeb actions.

wulfer

from out of nowhere! Check six ya'll!