funked posted 05-12-99 07:53 PM            

Anybody else notice this baby likes to spin?

It enters just as often as other similar planes (Fw 190). But with the 190 you have so much aileron and rudder control that you can get pretty far into the spin and still save it.

With the Frank I notice that it winds up REALLY quick and is a pain to pull out of a stable spin.

For a long time I would die in a stable spin with the Frank. I used various combinations of opposite rudder, elevator down, stick neutral, power on, power off, etc.

But I read a couple of articles where pilots (real life) discussed "pumping" the elevator to get the plane to oscillate out of the stable spin. I tried it in the Ki-84 and sure enough it responded with gradually increasing pitch oscillation until it finally pitched down enough to start flying again.

I've used this technique since then with 100% success, even from inverted flat spins.

Just last night I got in a fight, got into an inverted flat spin, lost 7k, saved it, then killed the guy I was fighting with. *brag mode off*

Anyways my goal isn't to toot my horn, but to ask what you guys think of this technique and is it realistic?

Also your comments on spin characteristics of other WB planes would be welcome.

Daff posted 05-12-99 08:11 PM            

I use similar technique in the P38 in flat spins. In the 38 it's usually worse as the CoG is further behind than in normal single-engined planes.

But..if any spin/stall characteristic is wrong, it's the P39. While it's very easy to whip it around, I can always recover after 1-1 1/2 turn, usually with the nose more or less level.

Then again..I cant remember last time I was in a fully developed spin :P

(Besides from DoA, where I spent most of my time spinning)

Daff

CO, 56th Fighter Group

56th.warbirds.org

"Gentlemen! You cant fight in here! This is the WarRoom!"

(Dr. Strangelove)

Toad posted 05-12-99 08:41 PM            

The 110 is particularly nasty and will snap right over on her back in a heartbeat if you push her too hard in a sudden turn.

Howsomever .. once on her back, if you keep your wits about you, you can fly her right out again. Whatever flight model conditions existed that put her on her back .. seem to go away once she's over there :-)

So just stay inverted, let her build up a little speed, insure you have enough alt not to drag a wing in the water .. and roll right on back again! Watch the G's, and good old Carnival Ride Otto will pick right up again, peppering that nasty evil Brit scoundrel back there on my six in his Spitfeur!

It must look amazingly interesting when I do this thing .. especially when we're about 20 feet off the water.

Regrettably none of them were so entranced by my 110 gyrations that they flew into the water. But one can always hope.

Panic when she flips, of course, and you're a goner.

She's much like the Fw190, which has a nasty little snap-stall-roll as well. Except easier to stabilize inverted. Must be that big cockpit :-)

Toad

Wells posted 05-12-99 08:45 PM            

Generally speaking,

Low winged WW2 fighters should have at least some power on to recover (full power if in a right hand spin, left hand for SpitXIV, Yak-3 etc). Perhaps even try dropping the gear. With the center of drag below the thrust line, you get a nose down moment that helps the recovery. Also, try using aileron into the spin. The adverse yaw will help recovery as well.

For inverted spins, elevator and rudder input are opposite, power off is probably best.

I think they spin too fast. I read that they lost about 1000'/revolution of a spin. Seems about right given that a light aircraft will lose at least a few hundred feet per rev, Worr? <G>

funked posted 05-12-99 08:49 PM            

Toad - I was talking about fully developed (stable) spins, where the plane has reached a steady rate of rotation.

The problem with the Frank is that it will spin right through your efforts to correct it, and if you don't catch it on the first revolution, you will be a passenger for a few K! You can't allow the Frank to slide a bit like you can with the 190. I think this is why the Frank was so dangerous to me, because a lot of my 190 ACM involved flying outside the envelope to gain some turn rate.

But yes I encounter the very same thing you are talking about! Mostly in the Fw 190. I have found myself looking up at the sheep more than a few times. And frequently upon recovery my opponent is at a disadvantage, probably because he is saying, "What on earth is that dweeb doing?"

Actually it probably looks a lot like Hartmann's evasive thing - which was basically a snap roll using forward stick pressure.

paarma posted 05-13-99 07:15 AM            

Maybe so, but no matter how much I tried, I couldn't make a spin that did'n correct via

a) letting away from the stick

b) or nose down, opposite rudder

I think, that WB spins are toned down. These birds just want to stay airborne! It doesn't mean that I'm claiming to be any good, it means that as a non pilot, I have lost my respect to WB's realism, what comes to the flight model. It's the best, but it's toned down for playability.

Kobra posted 05-13-99 08:58 AM            

Probably the quickest way to get the Ki84 out of a spin is to adjust trim. Dial in some down elevator and right rudder trim and you'll be able to get enough deflection to get out with conventional methods, and with a minimal altitude loss.

=kjbl=

airbss posted 05-13-99 12:17 PM            

Funked, I'm glad you posted this. Now I know how to recover in the KI. I've tried all the standared recovery methods and nothing was working unless I took immediate action when the spin first started.

I've had no problem recovering in the 190 but I've read that in real life the FW was almost irrecoverable if spun. Any thoughts on this guys?

syke-- posted 05-14-99 03:19 AM            

Funny you brought this up funked. A couple of days ago in the main I asked for Ki-84 spin recovery tips and Htrk (who, by the way, is a real-life fighter pilot) suggested chop throttle, full opposite rudder, and no stick input.

A couple other people chimed with with the "pump the elevator" suggestion. Htrk responsed that while that might work in WB's, it's not real life.

For what it's worth, I went into a spin tonight, tried htrk's suggestion and it worked perfectlly. The key is not to panic

dbng posted 05-14-99 03:59 AM            

The 38 spin is hard but do-able the worst part is going into the spin, the flight model changed from 2.5 -2.6 and the 38 now seems to have torque and spins way to easy. On the other hand, try spinning the h2, it's unbelievable. It's almost impossible to wreck this plane! the only thing you have to do to recover in the h2 is let go of the stick, don't even worry about the throttle, even in a left spin, the f6f is rather silly in a spin too, just add rudder and you're out.

funked posted 05-14-99 11:43 AM            

Well the P-38 does kind of look like a frisbee! Once it gets going you'd think it would be hard to stop. But I agree with you, stuff I've read says it didn't have a nasty spin.

Bugjam posted 05-14-99 12:00 PM            

I'm with you Paarma.

A few days ago after playing DoA I tried to make FW190 spin so bad I couldn't recover it. No success and *every* spin recovered with simple act, let the stick go and wait. I actually checked if was in easy mode but no, I did it the "hard" way. Besides this down toned spin takes max 2k alt to recover.

I also have experience of one winged alt gaining 190. some time ago (in 2.5) I had HO with Spit in my Dora. He exploded, I lost a wing. With one wing I gained alt but after I ran out of WEP I started slightly to lose alt. My nose was pointing home so I flew with one wing for over 25 miles! finally, over friendly territory I bailed out. I had come from 15k down to 4k.

Miracles happened in real life too but this is starting to sound weird.

Bugjam

VMF-58 Wildcards Rogue Squadron

funked posted 05-14-99 12:26 PM            

Yep the 190 will recover really easy.

mako posted 05-14-99 01:59 PM            

The F4U has a nasty spin IMHO. I believe it is one of the worst to recover from. Hatch is supposed to show me how but alas we ran out of time. In the hawg it seems to me the best answer is to fly the edge of envelope and not get in deep spin to start with. Any suggestions guys?

-mako-

eagl posted 05-14-99 09:14 PM            

Remember in some of the planes, aileron INTO the spin along with the stick forward and opposite rudder can help recovery. As for the stick pumping thing, in RL some planes require AFT stick to stabilize the spin at a lower rotation rate prior to abruptly shoving the stick forward to break the stall.

I read about an "old guy" Col. who was new to the F-16, and he got into a tailslide through inattention and a lack of familarity with the plane. Seems he didn't remember the lesson that said "The F-16 does not recover from a deep stall", so he flew his way out of the resulting deep stall by pumping the stick to cause the plane to oscillate farther until the stall broke. He lost something like 16K alt doing this btw.

In any case, the spin recoveries in WB seem "ok" to me relative to my RL experience in more than one aircraft, and some WB planes require a combination of techniques to recover from. In some high energy situations for example, the F-4U-1 will transition from an upright spin to an inverted spin almost immediately if you use too much forward stick. In those cases, aileron into the spin, full opposite rudder, followed by stick forward then almost immediately neutral will minimize altitude loss and prevent the spin from going inverted or increasing in rotation rate. FWIW, in RL if you add forward stick and it's not enough to break the spin, sometimes it will actually make things worse because it causes the plane to "wrap up" even faster. The way out when flying planes with that characteristic is to actually use full aft stick to decrease the rotation rate (lowering spin energy), then shove the stick back foward to pop out of the spin. Gotta be careful not to transition to an inverted spin though.

Dropping gear may help in some planes, but it also may hinder you because you won't accelerate beyond stall speed as fast further decreasing control effectiveness and increasing alt loss during the resulting dive pullout. I haven't tested dropping flaps much, but in most WB planes (all?) dropping flaps will cause a nose-down pitch moment as well as increase stall AOA for both wings, however I have found many WB planes to be MORE spin prone with flaps down due to many possible reasons. Some reasons may include sharper departure at stall, increased tendency for aileron inputs to stall one wing, lower spin-entry energy (which results in instant spin entry instead of first an uncommanded roll followed by a spin), lower control effectiveness at slow speeds, etc etc. FW drivers know what I'm talking about I think

-eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

funked posted 05-15-99 12:27 AM            

Thanks Eagl.

It's funny - I went and tried to spin the Ki-84 tonight and I couldn't do it. Most of them recovered if I let go of the stick, and only one required some input.

I couldn't get the nasty flat spin that I used the pumping method on!

I must be occasionally doing something bad in my initial recovery that gets me into that mode. Something like what Eagl is talking about with the F4U.

I'm sure glad WB has enough physics behind it to get this kind of behavior. Very fun. I remember how disappointed I was in 1983 when I first got SubLogic Flight Simulator II on my Apple IIe and I couldn't get it to spin!

llbm_MOL posted 05-15-99 03:26 AM            

I've noticed that the spin starts when your at low E and useing alot of rudder. If your at low alt this=death. If you have a few K then you have a chance.I dont know my method to pull it out but it works. I just doit automatically. Its not a thought thing its a feel thing.I go with how the spin feels. I can assure you that I have never pumped the elevater to get out of a spin although with the right amount of rudder and ailerons it can be done quickly if you harness enough speed.

LLBM OUT!!!

-aper- posted 05-15-99 05:24 AM         

It'll be very interesting to import one of the WB planes into DOA.

After acknowledging that the flight perfomance of this plane become more realistic import all other WB planes into DOA

sandman_sbm posted 05-15-99 10:52 PM            

Hey eagl...

On the F-16 (according to Falcon 4.0), this is the recovery procedure for a deep stall:

1. Release the controls.

2. Throttle to idle.

3. Rudder opposite yaw.

4. Engage Manual Pitch Override

5. Cycle stick in phase.

sounds rather familiar... :-)

Heck... stalls are one of the things I check to see if I "like" the sim. If I can put it into a violent unrecoverable stall, it's usually a winner. The first time I tried SU-27 Flanker was frightening. :-)

For stall recovery, I'm an admitted idiot... I have one procedure...

1. Stick centered.

2. Neutral lateral.

3. STOMP THE BALL.

4. No response? Add some aileron.

5. Still no response? Grab the silk.

cheers...

sandman

when the strike of a hawk breaks the body of its prey, it is because of timing - sun tzu