Daff posted 04-06-99 02:03 PM            

I started out flying online with Hornet 2 on the mac and it very quickly got obvious that the only way to have a chance, was to lead turn in the merge. In that specific game, there was an art to getting the right horisontal seperation and closure speed, so you could get the first shot off...we also flew silent first pass, so you had to learn the leadturn.

As I progressed to other sims, I took that knowledge with me, although the ACM's involved in the actual fight got a lot more complicated...but a healthy merging technique would still get me a long way.

But...I hardly ever see anyone "merging" in Warbirds. 95% of the people I merge with always go for the HO shot...and subsequently lose the merge as I've pulled a leadturn (usually in vert). This way I've won fights against every kind of plane in my P47...even if I hadnt been able to kill them, I've forced them to go defensive and been able to disengage from a fight I initially should have easily lost.

Exactly the same goes for early war, which surprises me, as the weak guns will hardly ever kill anyone on a couple of pings.

Depending on closure rate , I'll pull up in a gentle slightly oblique loop at d6 or so, see the con blazing away, trying to follow me up, but will bleed to much E and I'll drop down on their 6 as either they stall or try to get the nose down. Unless I seriously misread their E-state it never fails.

So..does everyone mainly go for the HO and the take the fight from there if they miss?

Daff

juve posted 04-06-99 02:21 PM            

Dang you, Daff, you gave away the biggest secret of all

Yes, merging technics are 80% of a succesfull dogfight result.

Unfortunately, in the current MA (quake mode imperant ) HO pass is the preferred method (especially if you have cannons ). I found some relief in the HA, but even there sometimes it happens.

Judging from some DOA threads, the HO methods seems to be rampant there.

I hope with the change in gunnery with next rev, the PK will be harder to achieve and be faded out in favour of more ACM fights.

Juve [pr : u-vay]

Stiglr posted 04-06-99 02:40 PM            

Lead turns: this is one thing that partially eludes me.

When I see a con, being your garden-variety 109 driver, I try to build as much of an alt advantage as I can get, or I'm trying to get out of the impending merge. I'll usually try to position the con obliquely to 10 or 2 o'clock and grab while he moves in level. If I can get a nice vertical separation, I can use roll and rudder to do my "lead turn" and gain significant angles on the bogie if he just bores on in for "whatever shot he can get".

But, in a co-alt, co-E situation where putting nose high is risky, I'm certainly not going to risk going purely horizontal "early" vs. a Spit or almost any plane, since the 109 series aren't worldbeaters in sustained turn. Even if I suspect he's a dweeb going for an eventual HO, I can't bring myself to "break into him early" and burn the E.

For me, the only well-timed horizontal lead turns that work are against targets that are being dragged. If it's "just me and him" and we both see each other, it usually turns into some form of HO (and I don't always take the shot). There never seems to be enough horizontal separation for a good lead turn strategy. Most guys seem to want to keep their nose on the bogie at all times.

SnakeEyes posted 04-06-99 02:42 PM            

Yeah, I'm tending to agree with LLBM here...

I've also noticed that alot of people go for the HO shot if they are COE or a little above me. As with anyone who has played WB for a decent amount of time, I've got a little HO avoidance move that is designed to entice the HO dweeb to make that HO run, while at the same time avoiding him and setting up the lead turn (I perfected it in Fighter Ops of all places... there were no collisions, so people really went all out for the HO... a good avoidance move was key).

In any case, I generally don't mind the HO dweebs. They're easy kills, and it's kinda fun watching them fire (and miss) as you're converting off the merge. Plus, it's a *really* easy way to separate a dweeb from an expert. The instant you see a guy barrel right at you from d30 and take the HO, you know that it's Miller-time.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

oneear 303PolishRAF posted 04-06-99 02:46 PM            

I think you hit the nail on the head: This gunnery model rewards the one who stays with the HO. I admit that when I have firepower advantage I will take the HO because I have to turn so damn early to avoid d10 gunnery that half the time I end up taking hits in the first merge.

Actually, there is a bit of an art to the HO as you need to get your shot and break before the other guy, but i certainly won't miss it when the new gunnery model comes out.

Dslick posted 04-06-99 02:50 PM            

I go for the HO depending on plane type, and usually only if the other guy looks like he want to go HO. If I'm in a 190 and the other guy is in a Zeke or something equally as fragile, I'll go for the HO. Generally though, I think it'sa bad tactic. Especially if you're as poor a shot as I am.

Like Daff said, 95% of people go for the HO on merge, but if I see the guy is NOT going for the HO then I sit up and pay attention, because he probably knows what he's doing. I know that if I blow the merge with that guy, I'm in trouble.

Dslick

CO 80th FS "Headhunters"

Audentes Fortuna Juvat

popeye posted 04-06-99 03:05 PM            

I like to aim right for the guy, and start shooting about D8. Keep my nose pointed right at him, and hold the trigger down. If I don't get the kill, I turn as hard as possible just after he passes by me, then climb right up after him, and start shooting again. If I run out of speed before I can reach him, I drop flaps and loop over the top, holding right on the edge of a stall.

This merge is guaranteed to have a dramatic effect on your K/D.

popeye

[WARNING: "popeye" is making a joke. The advice he gves is the opposite of what you should do... usually. - front]

DuneFT posted 04-06-99 04:03 PM            

I've found that by swinging wide (esp if my plane is a better turner) I take a few pings but find myself already around on the con while he's still in his turn. This is something I started doing on my own. This may be what you all mean by "lead turn". In a Spit I I was able to defeat two 109's who kept turning with me after a HO situation with both. After I dodged the intitial merge (taking a few pings from both) I was able to keep turning inside of them and hitting them while they were still turning.

I know Stig or IK would've gone vert and dropped on me while I went after the other con, but here it seemed to work. I tried to keep the 109 that just went past in my view so I could run if he did something to put me in the defensive.

If anyone has an easier way to have handled this situation I would love to hear it.

DuneFT "Vayan Con Dios Mis Hermanos!"

Flying Tigers - MA

487th FS "Lil' Bastards" - HA & SL's

Ghostt posted 04-06-99 04:19 PM            

Comeing into warbirds from the back door so to speak (The H2H & Simladder) Good merges were a necesity.

With time & experience they have only gotten better.

I have about 6 prefered variations on the standard immelman depending on ride & situation.

8 times out of 10 if they miss the HO they either pure outrun me or they are dead.

As to DOA, well it's a different world.

You can't zoom, (you hardly dare split s) Dives are inherantly dangerous. About the best you can do is try for the HO. Although I notice the really good pilots always set up for position.

ccasey posted 04-06-99 04:26 PM            

DuneFT, it seems to me that those 109 deserved to get shot down... In any fight where I was in the 109, I have never won if i didnt go vertical. While maybe ik or someone else with more experiance could turn it level a little and win, I cant.

Ok back on topic. Generally, i try to avoid HO unless thats the only option I could think of. Yesterday, I started a fight with a 110 that was lower than me but I misjudged his E. Anyhow, I after going vertical several times and missing on every pass, I messed up and turned level. Did a quick split-s to gain some speed, and extended about D10, i then half loop, and forced a HO cause that the only option I saw at that time (I was deep in enemy territory). Anyhow, I learned that people have a hard time hitting someone thats inverted when doing a HO. Generally my merge, is to climb acting like i'm going for the HO (doesnt always work and I end up going HO), then right when they start shotting I het WEP, go vertical, at about 150khm I bring the nose down on them, it seems most people turn their spits and other craft horizontal, so I just roll a little to line up the shot. Also in the 109, I found spits make me more nervous than 190's... cause they can turn inside of me most of the time. Also I found that if the person I am going against is about the same skill as me, (not to hard), we both seem the do the same thing and it just turns into a fight of HO's.

<=ccasey=>

Red Radiers

Strike/Escort

Sludje posted 04-06-99 04:36 PM            

Popeye, you are a cruel and sadistic creature, but you told the truth, that merge sequence will have a dramatic effect on your K/D ratio.<Sludje>

airbss posted 04-06-99 04:45 PM            

I agree most guys will go for the HO and half the battle is decided at the merge. Personally, I might do a HO depending on what plane I am up against. I also am more wary of those who aviod the HO. However, I once flew H2H against a navy f14 pilot who happens to play warbirds. Despite my evasives to avoid the HO(which usually work in the MA) he nailed me almost everytime . He stressed the the HO is a valid move and I now agree. If you have excellent gunnery and great flying skills it might be a good idea to sometimes go for the HO. In general, outstanding gunnery makes the HO an altogther valid move. A HO doesn't necessarily mean the guy is a dweeb. I do agree with Daff's point though, too many folks go for the HO.

I'm glad Daff shared his knowledge and techniques. I would rather have a good opponent to fight since those are the most enjoyable type of fights and the ones that we learn the most from. If these type of posts help cut down on dweebish moves, I'm all for it!

cuda posted 04-06-99 05:04 PM            

Lead turns rule... however I see that no one is REALLY sharing the secrets of the lead turn in this thread. SnakeEyes et al., that is not fair to those poor targ.. I mean adversaries.

I am no expert pilot (you all know that since I'm a kill decal on each of your planes). However I have been around awhile and learned a thing or two about merges.

First you have to avoid the HO while setting up separation. What people fail to realize is what is meant by separation. When you see the pro talking about horisontal and vertical separation he does NOT suggest that you start a slow climb ahead of the enemy, at least not prior to d6 (or something like that).

There are plenty of lead turn merge techniques but here is one that will work very well (especially vs. T&B aircraft):

Prior to the merge (d30 or so), dive! What? Are you nuts? Why would you want to dive? Enter shallow dive and start aiming to the side of the enemy. Hopefully you find yourself 1k below him at d10 or so and have some horisontal separation. What you also have is plenty of speed as this point. Pull up into a chandelle (oblique Immelman) at d8 or so. Since you use most of your turn in the vertical you get a very good turn rate. By leading the turn (starting the turn before the merge) you can almost always get an angles advantage on your adversary. Anyway, in this situation you will VERY often find yourself right on the 6 of your opponent blasting away withing seconds of the merge and he has no idea how you did it. If he pulls vertical all he did was pull right in front of your sights as you come up from below. If he turns in the horisontal you have the more efficient turn (using the vertical) and should be able to roll into him. For him to "meet you" he'll have to perform an oblique split-s which is WAY more e-wasting than your maneuver.

Try it, you'll like it, just don't try it on me

Cuda

SnakeEyes posted 04-06-99 05:46 PM            

Lead turns rule... however I see that no one is REALLY sharing the secrets of the lead turn in this thread. SnakeEyes et al., that is not fair to those poor targ.. I mean adversaries

Well, I guess I'm making a case for people to use our Training Staff (and, no, I'm not trying to be one, so no brown-nosing is going on here <G> ). In short, if anyone wants to work on avoiding HO passes, I'd recommend giving the Trainers a yell. I'm certain they'd be more than glad to help.

Just be aware that there IS a method to the madness of avoiding a HO... and it is almost foolproof once you get it down.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

Fourth Fighter Group

Stiglr posted 04-06-99 05:59 PM            

ok, cuda, now we're getting to the meat here.

What do you do if your opponent (at d30 or so) matches your move and denies you the opportunity to "set a course for the side of him"?. If you're, say, heading to the right of the enemy and he's heading to the left, because to him, he sees your dot going left, how do you get the necessary horizontal separation? Worse, if you're trying to head obliquely away from him, and he's just "keeping you in his sights" the whole way in, aren't you giving away angles here?

This is an interesting thread.

cuda posted 04-06-99 06:17 PM            

Stiglr,

I was thinking about you when I wrote my post because of a fight we had some time back. It really isn't the same but illustrated the importance of E. More on that fight later, first a response to your question.

Personally I find the vertical separation more important than the horisontal (for the reason you stated). Of course I've been in duels with pros that just matched my dive... made the merge really interesting.

Do you remember the fight you and I had a few months back in the Med? You in a 109F (or maybe G) and me in a Spit9. You caught me with a good 3k alt advantage but I managed to turn the table. Sure the Spit retains E amazingly well but more importantly, I did remember the key of having E at the merge. While it was not your typical CO-E Co-alt HO merge (you dove down on my 6) I did pretty well. Instead of climbing to you I started a shallow dive to pick up speed. When you commenced your attack on my high 6 I Immelmanned and to your big surprise (I remember us talking about it afterwards) I just kept climbing right up at you as you dove. The fact that I was doing 400mph prior to the Immelman helped :-) After two passes where I made sure to get my speed up between the passes (and not being sucked into a spiral climb when I'm already low on E) I managed to turn the fight and eventually made you ditch.... Never climb to a fight!

Cuda

Daff posted 04-06-99 06:29 PM            

Stiglr:

If you get him to point your nose at you all the time, you get an even easier time getting him...I'll need a pen & paper and a couple of broken arms to describe it, though . Basicly he's given up angles for a weak gun solution. I'm quite sure that this is described in Shaw. (Who also describes how to avoid getting hit )

The main trick to avoid the HO shooters, is a bit of slip...also try to stay below their nose until you pull the lead turn.

As for the turn itself, it can be anyway you want. I usually go for a near-vertical move, but if I'm low on E, I might do a nose-low move. Again..depends on E-state & plane type.

Daff

Spitfire posted 04-06-99 06:36 PM            

There are many things I consider at the merge. Plane type, separation, bogie maneuver, previous maneuvering, Es state, load factor, speed, etc

Most of the time I go for separation both in the horizontal and vertical, I jink jink and jink again starting at about d15 to avoid a head on shot and keep the bogie

guessing of which direction I am going to turn. I watch him see what he does and where he is going to turn.

If he goes up in an immelmann I lead turn in the horizontal then pull up with him. The lead turn slows me down to about corner speed and gains a nice bite at the pass.

His pull up is actually a turn away and increases his aspect angle(angle between his velocity vector and the Line of Sight) while I decrease mine giving me an

advantage. Being at corner speed I can pull max g and not blackout, therefore, I will be at my maximum instantaneous turn rate and be turning tighter assuming he

was above his corner. The horizontal separation allowed me to gain an aggressive angle advantage at the pass and the vertical allowed me more turning room at the

top of the immelmann.

This is the classic similar engagement sequence shown in Robert Shaws book "Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering" starting on page 103(ignore the previous

onecircle turn and assume Fig 3-2 was the result of a lead turn.)

This is an aggressive move and usually gives you a nice shot after the first turn in the vertical, but energy can not be completely forgotten, you need to at least maintain

some maneuverability for a possible role switch or another unseen bogie.

The bogie usually pull down into you and will try engage the rolling scissors which will be to its advantage. If you miss the shot, you can bugout when he pulls down

back on you. (usually head on) or you can lead turn for another shot and bleed more E (giving him a larger advantage if he starts the rolling scissors), but don't forget

to jink if he gets his nose on you in the headon.

If you want to bugout, try to entice him to turn the twocircle to bleed his energy (He has to turn longer then the onecircle and thereby bleeding more E) Dive and

extend when angles are neutral to regain energy parity. He will have to turn 360 degree inorder to get his nose on you, allowing you to increase the range with ease.

Now its your choice whether to run home and fight for another day when the odds are better or continue the fight.

I have a good idea of this pilots skill by now and choose to continue. I turn back into him just so my lift vector is on his nose or slightly below (90 degree aspect). At

this point pull enough G just to maintain a 90 degree aspect, so you are actually accelerating and gain E in this turn. This does two things in your favor, it causes you

to move across his windshield at the highest possible rate, effecting his aim, and increases closure making him nervous of an overshoot.

If he tries to go for a shot he will blow E, if he pulls up, you have him by rolling and pulling up towards him. If he presses his shot he will overshoot. We you recognize

that there is an impending overshoot (usually d5), you need to roll, pull up, and start the rolling scissors. If he continues his turn in horizontal, you have him, continue

to roll in the vertical and pull down for the advantage, then lead turn to turn inphase with his vertical pullup.

The bogie usually thinks he has an energy in this scenario, and usually will try to pull up an zoom after the overshoot, which will give you a nice tracking shot that he

doesn't expect. He didn't realize that you were accelerating and he was loosing E by pulling more G, trying not to overshoot. Just remember, its not a break turn. Its

very light.

To defeat this move, dive and extend when angles are near neutral.

triggr posted 04-06-99 06:57 PM            

Consider the possibility that the enemy plane is "heavy", that is to say, carrying bombs. From his point of view if he is in a faster plane he isn't interested in engaging you in a dogfight he just wants to "blow through" the merge and continue on to his target unmolested. In that situation, he may choose to HO especially if he has a firepower or durability advantage in the hope of dinging you and reducing your enthusiasm for pursuing an engagement with him. In particular, being aware of the turn performance disadvantage of being heavy he is very likely to want to HO whether he shoots or not just to reduce the separation, both horizontal and vertical, to deprive you of the ability to perform a good lead turn on him. The HO in this situation is essentially a nose-to-tail move designed to improve his chances of separating after the merge and continuing to his target. This may explain some of the HOs that we see in the MA. It does explain the reasoning behind most of mine. Am I missing something here?

Daff posted 04-06-99 07:27 PM            

Spitfire: What you are describing is not a leadturn. In the leadturn you start turning before the bogey to gain angles.

And if they do pull a horisontal turn on the merge, I'll often zoom and either rope'n'dope'm or end up on top with more E and all the options on my side. A low G zoom will gain you more E than any plane doing a cornerspeed flat turn.

Triggr: Yeah, I also just blow through the bogeys from time to time, especially in the 47...but if I open fire is more to get the other guy evading than to get the kill.

Despite often having more firepower than most of the planes I face, I consider HO's way too risky...it only takes one round to the head and the chance of a collision is just too big IMO. So if I do take up a HO pass, I first make sure that I wont get hit (too easily anyway) and then concentrate on the shooting. I guess that less than 5% of my kills in the 47 is "pure" HO's. (There's a fair number of front quarter kills, but that's different.)

Cheers,

Daff

SnakeEyes posted 04-06-99 07:58 PM            

I'd like to remind everyone that we're essentially talking about 2 issues here:

1) How to gain control of the fight during the merge.

2) How to avoid HOs on the merge.

It's probably best for people to address each separately... when you understand each one individually, it's not all that hard to work out ways to combine them.

With regard to my personal favorite (avoiding the HO), let me say two more things.

First, it's a little like a head fake (feint) by an NFL runningback, or a soccer player. You show the enemy one thing, get him to commit to that, and then immediately drop your pre-planned countermove on him.

Second, I'm 100% willing to demonstrate this to anyone interested while online (or offline in H2H mode)... but I'd like people to figure it out through experience, rather than just giving it up step-by-step in writing on AGW.

Having said that, once you learn the move (or similar moves that others use) you'll almost never get popped on a HO. If I'm COE and I've got d25-30 separation, I can almost guarantee that he'll miss me. And, in the rare instances where the enemy gets pings, I can almost guarantee that they'll do no damage. There's definitely a formula to avoiding the HO.

o-o-o-

"SnakeEyes"

Fourth Fighter Group

Jekyll posted 04-06-99 09:50 PM            

You're not necesarily giving up angles stiglr. If you've set up a course to the right of your target, and he's pulled left to maintain pure pursuit, then you WILL give up angles if you maintain a straight course and he drops slightly into lag to decrease his angle off tail.

But if you see him coming in, and maintain a very slight left hand turn.. just enough to keep him directly off your left wingtip.. then he's setting himself up for a gross overshoot.

At the merge, your tactic will depend on a myriad of factors... your aircraft, his aircraft, relative airspeeds etc. But assuming you defeat his 90 degree snapshot a barrel roll into his flight path should place you at his dead 6 at fairly short range without too much trouble at all.

The guy to really worry about in this situation is the one who initiates a gentle climb at about D25 or so and pulls into lead pursuit. He just may be setting you up for a barrel roll attack, slicing down onto your high 6. You don't seem to see too much of that in the MA though.

One of the reasons I'm so looking forward to the 2.6 gunnery is that it will make merge moves so much more important than at present. Rope a Dope may even come back into fashion, once we know that the enemy aircraft isn;t going to be shooting you full of holes from D8 while you hang motionless above him, having sucked him dry of E. And the shorter effective range of gunnery will mean that opponents will have to commit to a move early, so you can counter with some confidence. At present they can shoot from D8, watch your evasive and counter it .

janneh posted 04-07-99 12:27 AM            

You guys must take 110G and go to MA

90% of cons try to HO with you, even ZEKE'S ! LOL !

Crazy....

Now I've tried to use dive and loop style HO avoiding. After loop, depends what nme does.

I read about cuban eight, have to try it out.

Could be quite useful maneuver to do with 109F.

janneh down and out !

janneh / I. Jagdgeschwader-3'Udet'

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