From: front [my turn :-) - front]

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

The Defensive Spiral?

I can't get to grips with this move at all. I thought that it would be a superb guns defense move for the P-40E. The P-40E would be the "slow speed opponent" which Shaw talks about in his definition, and with it's great roll rate across the board I thought my favourite ride would be a champion.

I can enter the spiral without being hit, I can get my lift vector on the bogey in the spiral... it does not matter what the bogey is (Zeke or FW) as I have found that the spiral will checkmate him all the way to the ground. I find myself peering out and up at him across the canopy trying to spot a) the way his nose is pointed, b) his wings, and c) his altitude relative to me as I'm watching to see if he'll pull out first.

I've never made it out of the spiral though with a clear advantage and usually we turn around down into the ground with me going in first. I don't have the "chops" to abort early and try to get wings level and pull out as I'm too wary that I may give him the chance to saddle up.

The spiral tends to run away on me. I start to pull too many Gs and edge into black out. Acceleration increases and I'm a goner.

I tried to remedy this by throttling back fully but found I lost the ability to keep rolling and would stall. Various degrees of throttle are something I have to try. Ideally I want to stop my acceleration, am I right? I want to make the bogey descend below me before I make the pull out, hopefully on his tail or at least somewhere behind him.

Should I strive to maintain corner velocity in the spiral? Easier said than done if correct... the spiral gets away from me.

What other ways can I use to slow my descent? Deploying flaps and gear is not an option. Should I pull harder into the turn, or slightly raise my lift vector above the bogey as if I am beginning a pull out? I'm not too sure about that as my rate of turn would decrease too much I think... then the bogey gets too many degrees on me.

Again I've found that when I do manage to exit the spiral I've too many Gs loaded so any sudden jink to spoil a shot creates yet more problems... long blackouts, and near total loss of SA. If the lower fighter sees a chance to exit the spiral, and does, but the higher bogey is right on him where should the fighter go then with Gs loaded? Up in the vertical or out into a Split-S?

I did notice how effective the spiral is to lock up a Zeke. Last week in the HA I was in the P-40E a few times. Zekes coming into F22 (HA PTO) from the CV, arriving with alt (10k thereabouts) would go to work on me first if they spotted me... I'd be up there too but barely:-) After the first pass or so I'd be quickly out of options... not enough "E" for a reversal no matter how much separation I looked for before the merge.

Anyway... my tactic was then to drag the Zekes down into the gaggle of Greens down lower. Some of the Zekes came down with me. Now I could never take advantage of their poor roll rate in the spiral to turn the tables on them... they'd end up locked in highspeed curves with my allies dropping in onto their tails as I blasted out at the bottom extending for all I was worth.

Just once I'd like to exit the spiral with a clear advantage and be able to turn the tables on the bogey... failing that I'd like to exit without bring afraid that I'm presenting the bogey with a good clear shot. I humbly ask the trainers or others for their advice?

Any contributions gratefully received.

cheers

front

From: - Ara--- X/O 401 RCAF Rams

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

I have a pretty decent spiral (arrr arrr)

I use it as an offensive move.. and I feel pretty confident I can spit most people out of it even if they know it's coming... (same plane of course)

I'll often, (in a duel if I realize the guy's pretty good at turning and I'm not gaining) let him in behind in such a way as he starts to see a shot coming on.. and gets fixated for the kill... (my basic idea is to stay just ahead of his shot until he's D3 to 5) accelerating the roll and turn until I'm headed toward the ground. My goal is to have my lift vector into him.. but him being completely "upside down to him" in my view.. (our canopies are facing each other)...

I'm pulling lots of G's at this point..and my spiral has got lots of nose down in it to keep my speed up.. (around turning speed is prolly correct)... I feel that I'm pulling under his nose.. so as he rolls to keep up with me he can't really pull G's with me.. Cause my plane is trying to disappear under his nose... I'll often roll back the throttle.. and pop flaps if they'll come out if he's managing to bleed off speed with me..

(Cause I'm definitely bleeding off speed at this point) (the idea is to bleed off speed "relative to him" by putting the planes in such a geometry that you bleed off or stay the same.. and he accelerates)

At this point he'll decide he's loosing it and pull up or still be withme...

If he pulls up, I'll continue to pull into him.. selecting full throttle and wep as I stop rolling and go thru the horizontal into the vertical .. he'll most likely appear in my front view above me.. going slowly assessing the situation... This is a very sweet shot and I try not to miss it.. game over..

If he stays with me, He'll usually pull off just as I'm about to auger into the ground... <G> (I've avoided hitting the ground more times than I can count because of this phenomenon... ;-) and I still get a shot at him as he hangs above me wondering why I didn't auger...

I've used this move in the arena on occasion, but I feel really bad doing it (as it's just spending my precious E and making me a target for the next enemy that comes along).. best just to not let bad guys onto your 6 in the first place.

Hope this helps a bit in figuring out what's not working right

Ara--- X/O 401 RCAF Rams

From: =worr=

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

>I can't get to grips with this move at all. I thought that it would be a >superb guns defense move for the P-40E. The P-40E would be the "slow >speed opponent" which Shaw talks about in his definition, and with it's >great roll rate across the board I thought my favourite ride would be a >champion.

Wow....its my fav for the move. Especially when we had the HA with early war zeros. Stop by the training arena....I can show you want you may be doing.

>I've never made it out of the spiral though with a clear advantage and >usually we turn around down into the ground with me going in first. I >don't have the "chops" to abort early and try to get wings level and pull >out as I'm too wary that I may give him the chance to saddle up.

You have to force him to overshoot....cut power. Most wont fall for it and they pull up. That's right when you reverse him as he goes blind as he counters the move.

>The spiral tends to run away on me. I start to pull too many Gs and edge >into black out. Acceleration increases and I'm a goner.

Yep, you are going full power sounds like. If you are starting to stall with no power then your spiral is too shallow. Most people can't even get an ac to slow down for a landing in a very shallow dive with no power. So if you are stalling you need to nose over more.

>Should I strive to maintain corner velocity in the spiral?

Nope...just maintain the grey out.

Worr, out Prov 18:12