Moose posted 01-16-99 11:59 PM ET (US)        

You know, after flying the ol' Iron Dog for a while today, and having fairly decent success with it, I have to wonder about the 37mm deathstick that it's got. It's a nice portable little can of whoop-ass if you can get a fighter to sit still long enough in front of you--push the button once, see the cute little smoke cloud, then wait for his FE to figure out that one wing is no longer attached, and voila, instant kill. Sure, the rest of the Iron Dog's guns are virtually worthless, but it's still a pretty good (and underrated) airplane.

But tonight, I had something odd happen. A group of Pigs were over F17, heading back to have some more good fights with the golds, when we tripped upon a group of five or six Red Raider B-17s (and one Spit escort) pounding F17. Well, as is usual when B-17s appear, the golds and greens both dropped what they were doing to hunt big game.

I lined up on a B-17 and started lobbing 37mm his way, then dodging Otto return fire. I hit him with a 37mm in the tail at d7, weaved in closer, then began firing single 37mm shots. I hit him FOUR MORE TIMES, all in the tail area--the last two were directly into the tailgun area, at less than 100 yards range. (How I didn't ram the guy, I'll never know.)

That damn buff flew away with *NO* missing parts. None. Five 37mm shells right up the ass, all directly into the tail section of the bomber, and he just flew away with nothing more than the one smoking engine he started with, and maybe a tailgunner reduced to the consistency of chunky salsa. It took another green pumping 40% of a 190's cannon ammo load into the tail to get it to fall off finally--and he got the kill. Meanwhile, I glided off to RTB at F13 sans engine (not a problem--I crawled up the dead six of a B-17, I deserved it).

I've known for a long time that the 37mm is utterly useless for ground attack--it has to land directly on top of an ack to kill it, and by that range machine guns seem to do a better job anyway. Against other airfield structures, even an entire 30-shot ammo load won't kill them.

So I have to wonder. I know that the MK 108 30mm equipping the Bf 109K-4 is woefully undermodeled, to the point of fighters taking three and four hits and escaping with minor damage, which is flat-out wrong--the MK 108 was the 2nd most powerful weapon in wide Luftwaffe service, right after the MK 103. Is the M4 37mm getting the same powder-puff modeling that the MK 108's 30mm shells are?

Moose

Flying Pigs

BYACAW

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-17-99 12:25 AM ET (US)            

I'd say that all warbirds guns are less lethal than their real life counterparts. Aircraft do not have structural failures due to high g's after taking damage (a few hits to the wing while a plane is in a tight turn should instantly clip it off due to structural failure caused by high g's), and all damage delivered gets "sucked" onto various points of the plane. Have you ever put a whole load of ammo into a guy's wingtip and then watch the whole wing fall off? That's one of my favorite cheap shots i get away with

7mm, 13mm, 20mm, 30mm, 37mm, it's all undermodelled. That b17 should have been toast after the second 37mm shell, *maybe* the third. As far as your comparison to the 30mm mk108, i believe the 37mm shell of the p39 weighed a little more than *twice* as much as 30mm mk108 shell. We've all seen that picture of the spit hit by a 30mm shell (remember cannon do not lose lethality with range) just imagine the dammage done by a 37mm!

I also flew the 39 today, even had a 3 kill sortie (very good for me in a 39), two 190s and a spit! They never knew what hit them, hehe.

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

leonid posted 01-17-99 12:34 AM ET (US)         

Moose,

1. If you like flying the P-39 try shooting away all the .30 ammo before combat. It tend to give it a somewhat improved performance. Of course, if you value your gunnery % this is not such a good idea: my gunnery % is 0

2. I've noticed the very same thing when hitting bombers too. I remember once in a hi speed attack on a B-25 I hit it about 4-6 times with the 37mm, and all resulted was some non-crippling damage. True, the hits were all along the fuselage. I do think that if one were to put a couple on the wings the results might be more productive.

3. I've found that the 37mm is excellent against ack! I can put down a forward field's ack by myself in a P-39. I do tend to go into 45 degree angle or greater dives when hitting ack - and of course good speed.

Frodo posted 01-17-99 12:34 AM ET (US)            

Ahhh moose great fight tonight.You flew that

39 like a damn zeke.Finally had you until

that damn sheep got in the way of my wingtip!

Salute

Frodo

Ozymandias DoD posted 01-17-99 01:17 AM ET (US)            

Oz has to agree with Leonid here, the 37mm is EXCELLENT for hitting acks! Also, an Oz would be in complete agreement with Moose about it being completely useless against other structures though. I find I can usually hit an ack in about 3 rounds. One to range, the second for the other half of the bracket, third one's a charm. Works better from a higher angle though, from lower alts it's very much harder to see and adjust the elevation.

And it is pretty neat to hit a plane, see the explosion, and two seconds later see that wing rip off!

Have noticed though, that hitting the wing of a plane is MUCH more likely to bring it down than hitting the fuselage. I imagine, modelling issues aside, that is fairly realistic though. It's no definite thing, but I recall reading something about LW pilots trying to knock the engines out of a buff, to bring it out of formation for easier destruction, but also cos prolly not very productive (comparatively) to spray rounds into the fuselage. Most of the bombers going down footage I've seen involves a missing wing...

-ozds- DoD

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-17-99 03:08 AM ET (US)            

Interesting point Oz. Most of my b17 kills come from knocking off the Hstab. With our 1.5 foot diameter tracers this is very easy. Imagine how hard it would be to knock off an hstab with real sized tracers! Your correct that knocking a bomber out of formation was very important to the LW. I believe the same amount of points were awarded to seperating a bomber as to killing one! One of the problems with warbirds SL's is that the frame is always ended *just* after the b17s drop their bombs. Even with multiple oil leaks, it takes a long time for a b17s engines to die, and by the time they do the frame is usually prematurely ended by the CM. When the engines do die, the frame is over and wether or not the bomber falls out of formation is a mute point. Thus i still shoot for the tail or if possible a head on to the canopy works like magic. However i have had mixed experiences with this tactic. Sometimes even at closure speeds of 600mph+ otto will still nail me in a head on with a b17 before i even get to fire. Oh well.

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

eagl posted 01-17-99 05:16 AM ET (US)            

when hitting buffs regardless of what plane I'm flying, I like to use a very steep attack from high-6. I took out about 8 buffs in a spit (not in one sortie, I got about 2 each sortie) by flying over them and doing a split-S to their 6 taking the high-angle deflection shot from straight above them. When making this split-S, I shoot for center of mass since it's hard to aim when the buff is under the nose After I saddle up at d2 however, I go exclusively for a wing to try for the sure kill wing removal. I've shot too many buffs where I get pings all over the plane, smoke all engines, etc, but the thing keeps flying. The key it seems is to get to d2 or closer as rapidly as possible (the vert down conversion works nicely) then saw off a wing at convergence. If done quickly enough, this attack only gets me pinged once or twice at the most. Of course, you gotta watch speed otherwise you gotta lag off to prevent a collision, and then otto will grab you by the nuts and give a good hard yank.

-eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

Yeager posted 01-17-99 05:56 AM ET (US)            

Hiya Moose,

Yours is a good question to which I dont know the answer.

I love the WBs P-39. The one thing I have done differently when firing the cannon is to fire it in tandem with the four 30s. I used to fire just the 37mm alone but have found that I get better cannon hit probability with five guns firing. Dunno why, just do!

Lastly, I dont even bother with Imols B-17s any more (unless I just happen in on them but even then its with astute resignation).

On the other hand, if Im in a 262 and someone calls out buffs, Im there.

Yeager

Moose posted 01-17-99 09:36 AM ET (US)            

Frodo: Oh yeah, you were the Spit that I got stupid and got into an on-the-deck turnfight with. Right about as the realization hit me that "this was a Bad Idea"--i.e., you were gaining angles on me big-time--that brave woolly member of the Green Resistance boldly gave her life to clip your wingtip and auger you. Saved my butt. The golds last night were great opponents near F17, it was really fun. And to whoever that 190 was who B&Zed me for about five solid minutes but never brought me down--I hope I wasn't warping.

BTW, I found the other really bad thing about the Dog--you just can't deflection shoot with it. Pull any G and you're shooting completely blind. Seems like the only way I can get decent hits is to jump on somebody who's not maneuvering hard and get them quickly with the 37mm, because the machine guns take too long and they'll break away. It's a great plane for clearing friendlies of pursuing bad guys, because of the terrific dive speed (had it cranked up to 510 mph last night and it held together, barely) and supposedly-one-shot-one-kill armament.

I'll try the wing trick with buffs. I usually aim for the wing if I've got six or eight .50s backing me up (or in a Mossie, four 20mm) but sometimes I'll also just try to saw the tail off and kill the tailgunner in the process--it's an easier shot to aim for the center of mass. And I'll try it again for ack removal, I've never had much luck with it but then again I've completely lost my touch for strafing them out, too.

It all makes me wonder just what a faster P-63 Kingcobra (with a beeeg red star on the fuselage, natch) would be capable of in the arena.

Moose

DocDoom posted 01-17-99 10:17 AM ET (US)            

quote:

The golds last night were great opponents near F17, it was really fun. And to whoever that 190 was who B&Zed me for about five solid minutes but never brought me down -- I hope I wasn't warping.

That was me. I was down to MG's only and just thought I'd try for it, have some fun. A P-39 in front of you is always better than one behind you ;]

It was probably me warping, my connect has been like flying in a jar of blowflies on diet pills lately.

Every buff I've encountered lately has been a real ammo sponge ... no matter what I hit them with (I haven't tried the 75mm in recent times, but it SHOULD work ok) ...

Doc.

God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh.

avin posted 01-17-99 12:46 PM ET (US)            

Got to agree about the 37mm and buffs. Unless I take a wing off, it takes me 6-8 37mm shells to down a B-17. This means I tend to leave buffs alone when flying the P39D unless I'm feeling suicidal. otto will probably do serious damage by the time you've landed 6-8 hits.

Regarding deflection shooting in the P39D: it's hard, as you say, but very possible. About half my kills now are blind under-the-nose shots.

avin

Daff RSAF posted 01-17-99 12:59 PM ET (US)            

Hmmm is the P39 becoming the thang to fly?

I've flown a fair bit the last 2 days, with moderate succes.

But..as for attacking buffs..I flew up behind at B17, stayed at d12 and lobbed in the 37mm...3 hits on the wing and it fell off. OTOH I placed 2 shots on the wing of a spit..and he lost an aileron ????

I also had a fight with moose <G> (I was in a 190) and was extending away when he hit me with the 37mm from d24!..I was looking back at him and saw this explosion underneath me.

(Only lost flaps).

Now..if only the would give us the Stuka with the 2 37mm

Daff

Moose posted 01-17-99 01:26 PM ET (US)            

Daff: The P-39D's a little more competitive in the 1941-42 planeset than people think. If it had decent machine gun armament (six .50s) it would be a heck of a good B&Z ride. It will turn decently enough (but sustained turnfighting in it is a bad idea), and can outrun anything, even a 190, in the initial portions of a dive (the 190 will catch up to it quickly once both planes level out, though). It holds its control authority well at high speeds, too.

Regarding the d24 shot, are you sure it was me? I was being B&Zed by several purp 190s at the time, and I took a couple of vain shots at them (in the hope they'd see the smoke from the firing, or see a shell whiz by, and let me get some more range to run away) but I had no idea I would've connected with any of them. It was blind luck, believe me, I'm not nearly that good with the 37mm.

Doc: You weren't warping either. The main reason that I said something about warping was that I stalled it a couple of times and was having to use some fairly violent rudder stomping to get the plane pointed back in the direction I needed it. I thought it might have appeared as "stick stirring". But the fact that you were down to machine guns only probably explained why I survived. I only took one ping the whole time, until friends showed up and chased you off. I landed back at F13 on my last drops of fuel, and one of my squaddies (tshark) got killed trying to chase you down.

Moose

Daff posted 01-17-99 02:07 PM ET (US)            

Yeah, Moose, I'm sure it was you

I was up there with bmbm & tintin (all in 190's) and we buzzed you several times.

Although we chatted briefly on ch100, I didnt get around to confirming it was me, as I had to chase another greenie away from another purp.

I was pretty sure it was pure luck, no offense <G>, but it sure scared me..I saw the explosion, realised what had happened and thought I was dead ..I then checked the radio buffer and to my relief I had only lost the flaps.

Daff

Ozymandias DoD posted 01-17-99 04:32 PM ET (US)            

I do recall that the 37mm and 75mm projectiles are tracked for longer than ordinary MG/cannon, i.e., they don't just disappear at D10, but have no idea what their range is. Although d24 sounds a bit long, especially for an ATA hit...but I've seen some odd stuff in my time so I don't discount it. (Watched a TOW missile fired once, and it simply dropped onto the track 3 ft out the tube. Oops! )

-ozds- DoD

DocDoom posted 01-17-99 09:29 PM ET (US)            

Ozds.

The 37mm and 75mm projectiles in WB will continue to keep flying until they hit something, even if that something is nothing (they fall to earth or water). In this function they are more like the WB rocket than a WB "bullet".

I do not know what their maximum range is, but it's a LONG way. Not as far as a rocket, but it looks to be further than 2400 yards.

Doc.

Magnus posted 01-17-99 11:10 PM ET (US)            

I have had the same problems shooting down buffs with the 37mm. It seems as if "otto" shoots them out of the air before they land on the buff and cause damage. Is this possible?

Magnus

tone posted 01-18-99 12:29 PM ET (US)            

The P-39 is a GREAT PLANE.

I never ever ever fire the 37mm in combination with other weapons. I also never autofire it unless I'm in real close with a bomber and worried about losing the duel with OTTO.

Favorite P-39 moment: I'm flying really poorly one night getting killed many times in a row by high-performance late-war planes. From my 10K climbout, I spot a Spit 14 who just roasted a green, starting run for home on the deck at considerable distance. I dive after him, WEP on, plane shaking like no tomorrow (in the P39, there often IS no tomorrow). But, due to his dastardly uber-plane selection, the overtake speed is diminishing, and I'm still at d20. I start the ranging fire, and the shells take 5 seconds to travel out there as the rate of closure seems to be approaching zero. Big splashes are going up out there, but from the low alt, it is hard to tell the range the fire is falling it. But, no matter -- round #7 hits him at D17. Vengeance was SWEEET that night.

tone