IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 01-04-99 07:00 PM ET (US)  

I have read accounts of this technique but I dont see any advantages to its use...

Probably cuz I'm f#@%ing up the execution of it.

From what I have read you:

1. begin a moderate climb of say...40 degrees or so.

2. use your rudder to keep your nose high, and input aeliron for roll to keep in a climbing sorta turn.

3. Than when you begin to stall out, use opposite rudder to kinda kick your tail around, also using roll input to help.

4. When complete you should be goin in the opposite direction.

??????

What exactly is your speed supposed to be when you kick your tail around?? 100kph, greater???

Is this supposed to be a swiftly executed technique, or is it a slow one like the hammerhead???

How much E do you lose executing this technique, how much do you want goin into it, and is it worth burning off E to use...??

Enquiring minds want to know....

Muchass grasseous

Idi

chry posted 01-04-99 07:42 PM ET (US)

Buy the book you cheap-ass dictator you!! <g>

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dooms/guides.htm

Then you and Bob Shaw will have somethingin common ;-)

Chry

IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 01-04-99 09:29 PM ET (US)

HAHAHAHA!!!!.....

Chit...ya!! But man I'm movin' and dont know what my new address will be.... ah vell....

eagl posted 01-04-99 10:33 PM ET (US)

A "real" sliceback is simply an exaggerated nose low turn. A perfect sliceback is one that has you going just barely nose low that you can sustain your plane's instantaneous corner velocity for the entire 180 degrees of turn. It begins with a roll to an "overbanked" situation, ie a bank that is greater than 90 degrees but not totally upside down. You then simply pull until going the other way In WB, the "perfect" sliceback is G-limited not by your plane, but by the blackout, so a perfect WB sliceback would be just enough overbanking to allow your pull to keep you on the edge of blackout, but not nose low enough that you accelerate past the min speed required to get that level of greyout. The idea is to get going the other way as soon as possible while maintaining your speed.

What you're talking about (I think) is more like a wingover, rudder turn, or hammerhead turn, where you get your plane nose high at the edge of the stall, then use rudder to kick the tail around.

eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

IDIAMN 1 JG27 AFRIKA posted 01-05-99 12:38 AM ET (US)    

Eag...thx bro, that helps alot.

I think I been doin' this without even realizing it at times, tho it is kind of like a last ditch resort.

When a high vertical reversal is unpractical due to a low e state, and I have no choice but to turn and hopefully get guns on a bogie that I know I cant outrun, I have executed a dive with some hori element to it in order to keep speed up and turn at the fastest rate. But, I aint usin much rudder. Seems to work ok and has saved my arse from time to time as well. This sounds fairly similar to what you describe.

Next time I am forced to do this I will go ahead and put some more bank into her and giver a shot.

Thx bro!

Idiamn, cheap ass and soon to be homeless dictator

eagl posted 01-05-99 01:06 AM ET (US)    

Glad I could help. A sliceback isn't exactly an offensive manuver... In RL, we use them as an "abort" manuver, to get us out of dodge as soon as possible. If we are trying to go offensive, we will not be trying to stay at instantaneous corner, because it is a direct tradeoff of altitude energy for speed energy during the turn. If we are offensive, it's all about nose position vs. energy. You either have one or the other, and you can almost always trade one for the other. In other words, if you want to have lots of energy, just climb in a straight line As soon as you start turning to put your guns on the target however, you are giving up energy (speed, altitude, or both) in order to gain nose position.

A high, slow rudder kick turn or wingover manuver is a way of "cheating" the energy vs. nose position tradeoff, by making the plane's natural stability at low speeds gain you nose position. For example, if you pull your nose straight up (theoretically trading all your speed energy for altitude energy), you will be at your maximum energy state with zero instant nose position abilities because your speed is zero at the top. However, at the top, with a little rudder assist, the plane's natural stability can whip the nose around a full 180 degrees without losing you any altitude. You get essentially "free" nose position without any energy tradeoff. Of course the problem is that you're a total grape at the top, and can't manuver out of the way of anyone shooting at you

Those little spin-entry turns that I do in the F4u are kind of like that, using a stability issue to gain almost "free" nose position when in a low speed-energy state (near the stall) by causing the plane to enter and exit a spin on command. That's why it gives me a slight advantage when used against someone who is simply trading energy for nose position in the conventional way (by pulling on the stick).

Clear as mud now?

-eagl-

F'ing Pigs, BYA

Bino posted 01-05-99 10:52 AM ET (US)

...the problem is that you're a total grape at the top...

LOL! Great turn of phrase, Eagl!

Those "grapes" are among my very favorite kills to pluck, when I luck out and arrive at my convergence just as the other guy is hanging there on his prop. It's also why I tend to retain a bit more than min-manuever speed at the top of my vertical reversals. Guess I'm just a natural paranoiac.

I'm still kinda surprised at how difficult it seems to convey the notion of using the vertical, even if just a little bit, in a "flat" turn. Me, I don't think I spend more than about ten consecutive seconds not changing my own altitude, either going down or (mostly) up. Except when I'm flying a bomber, of course.

When I first read Doc's description of his "sliceback" (yes, I got his books) I admired the clarity of his description, but the concept of the manuever itself (climbing rudder-kick turn) was not all that foreign. The description above of your "sliceback" is also far from muddy, and it sounds like what Shaw sometimes refers to as a gravity assisted, nose low max-performance turn. Is that accurate?

bino--

II./JG54