Konrad posted 01-09-99 09:50 PM ET (US)        

Does the majority of the Warbirds community really believe the 109 is a terrable plane? Almost everytime it seems when I tell someone that my favorite plane is the 109 or that I think it is a great fighter I get laughed at. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I would just like to know what makes most ppl think the 109 is a bad plane. I'm not trying to argue with anyone just want to know the reasoning behind their low opinion of this plane.

Let me first tell you why I think it is such a great fighter...

1. Great climb, all the 109 variants with the exeption of 109g vs spit9 have enough climb speed advantage over their enemies to climb away from most trouble, then turn it into a spiral climb and get on the opponents 6 or drag them for a wingman.

2. Speed, the 109E, 109F and 109K can outrun most of their opposition, the 109E is slightly slower than the P40 but here it has a HUGE climb advantage. And although the 109K is slightly slower than the Mustang it has much better acceleration and yes, you guessed it, an ENOURMOUS climb advantage.

3. Rudder, the rudder is very powerful and really lets you do some wild manuvers.

4. Dive, whatever the 109 cant outclimb or outrun or outmanuver, the only example of this being the 109G vs Spit9, it can outdive.

5. Small turn radius and instant turn, this allows it to keep up with a better sustained turning plane for long enough to get a good shot.

It also makes the many diffrent kinds of scissors very effective.

6. It is durable for its size and has quite a bit of armor. It has more armor and is more durable than a spit, this is important in a large fight.

7. Great evasives plane, the rudder and excellent ability to do neg-g manuvers allows for great evasives and make it hard to hit.

8. Looks, the later models are certainly some of the best lookers in the game.

These are my reasons for loving the 109. Just because it can not compete quite as well as spits or yaks or 190s in a 1v1 fight or a low alt, wingmanless furball does not mean a thing. I have never read an account of any lone 109 pilot trying to mix it up with a spit 1v1, it was all in the larger engagements, and these are usually won by the plane with better durability, firepower, and/or speed, whether it be vertical(climb) or horizontal. IMHO this plane was one of the best fighters of ww2, I believe it is the one that bagged the most kills in the war, and remained in service into the 1960s

I instantly fell in love with the 109 the first time I saw it and read a few things about it, and I would just like to know why so many ppl think its such a terrable fighter.

Konrad

Jg77

lazs posted 01-12-99 09:16 AM ET (US)            

karaya said..The 109 is a very challenging plane to fly. I have immense repsect for 109 drivers because it is at a disadvantage compared to other WB planes, especially at low levels.

I agree, i really don't have the patience to fly LW planes but I will grab a 109 from time to time in the HA just to even things out. I don't run into a lot of the good 109 pilots after the first few days of the rps because after that they mostly are playing a different game than I am. for example.. i was in a F4U-1 at about 5 k and seen a high 109 over the field with a spit friend or two.. some of our guys were actually climbing right up to him. After he killed one of our guys I knew it was ik <G>... when I killed one of the nme spits, Ik knew it was me.

I spent about 10 minutes trying to work my way up to a co-alt , co-e position all the while taunting Ik on 100 to get him down a little <G>. he wasn't buying it and I wasn't going to climb up to him with no E. After 10 minutes I got bored and left. He was no threat to me and I was no threat to him. It wasn't fun to fly the Hog in this fight and I wouldn't have enjoyed being in the 109. The 109 became a non-issue for me.

lazs

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-13-99 01:04 AM ET (US)            

up lazs i remember that. Boy those guys who climb UP to a fight sure make ME happy

As for us, we were both flying too smart to have any fun! I wasnt going to go low for fear of becoming outnumbered, and you weren't going to climb up and be a target with no speed. I eventually ran low on fuel and rtb'd.

<S>! Lazs!

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-13-99 02:15 AM ET (US)        

Stiglr mentioned, learning to fly the 109 is like learning 5 different planes. Each one requires a different technique for flying shooting, and surviving to land.

First there's the Emil which vs the Spit I is a purely BnZ machine. Dive down, shoot, kill, then runaway. While I can climb away from most other contemporaries (save the Spit I), hanging around in prolonged fights will get me run down and killed quick.

A sad day for the Emil was the 1940 France HA. The p40b, to the shock of many totally mopped up the floor, and to add salt to the wound the p40b never even flew in France. It's a shame so many were left with a bad impression of the Emil because of this Don't get me started.

On a more possitive note...

The Franz is the best furballer of the series, and thus also the most popular. It rolls like a top, accelerates like a ki and climbs like a rocket. (It's roll rate is actually quite suspect, there's absolutely no reason for it to have a faster roll rate than the 109G and 109K.) For this reason the 109f is perhaps a bit too good to be true, but what a ride it is! Climb climb climb, I keep this in mind and I can hold off a trio of spits for a long time, and maybe even win the fight. Gotta get close though before you fire.

Great ride though it is, unfortunately being a 109 pilot in warbirds is not sticking to the 109f through the whole RPS

Skipping to 1945, at the end of the RPS there's the Koenig. Big engine. Big gun. This is the 109 where I really notice the compression, it practically punches me in the face. I find it really hard to get the 30mm on target against any fighter doing the most basic maneuvers (though i have managed 5 kills in a sortie on several occasions, and 6 once during a vultch fest ). I usually resort to "Rope a Dopes" and high speed low 6 sneak attacks. I always climb in the K, i climb away from everything

Saving the best for last, my favorite of the bunch is the Gustav. It's not the fastest, doesnt climb the best, nor does it turn well. Something about the Gustav is just special. Nothing makes me happier than to kill a Spit9 with it, i just think to myself how frustrated the guy must be sitting at his desk somewhere, brooding with disgust at being killed by a lowly Gustav My very best 109 memories have been in the Gustav since the introduction of the RPS, that forced me to actually try it out, learn it and love it. Killing 4 spits and 5 p51bs in the 1943 HA with the g6r6 and then landing the sortie was a true highlite! On the ACM side of things, in the G6 i routinely run away from Spit9s and out climb p51s. Recently two P51D's jumped my Gustav from above. As one made a pass he overshot as i did a simple horizontal scissors, then i pulled up fired and suddenly the Stang found himself short one wing The wingman i was able to get above and spiral climb. He met a similar fate. And to top it off the Gustav is the best looking 109 to boot!

Well enough of this boastful preaching, im off to go kill spits!

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

Kats posted 01-13-99 03:18 AM ET (US)            

A note about the 109k, don't forget about those MG's, they are really good. The other night I got three kills with them in a hop before I even got into the 30mm

paarma posted 01-13-99 06:00 AM ET (US)            

That's true, I use mg's as the primary weapon in K, cannon is reserved only to those special moments when the gunsite is full of the target..

Gustav has the same mg's. I've sometimes wandered around in G6R6 with only mg's left, searching for a prey. (But don't remember what the outcome might have been:-)

Gustav has been my favorit exclusively from 1.11 days.

//paarma

shok posted 01-13-99 11:03 AM ET (US)         

Does anyone know how the real throttle on the Messerschmitt works and what additional controls are on the quadrant itself? I remember reading that the throttle was Pulled Back to open and Pushed Forward to close, the reverse of what the throttles are for RAF and USAF aircraft.

If that is true, do you Bf drivers set your quadrants realistically?

shok

Konrad posted 01-13-99 05:52 PM ET (US)            

Yep, 109G is my favorite too, though the K is also really great. I dont feel right in the 109F or 109E

Kun JG54 posted 01-13-99 07:17 PM ET (US)            

Yep, despite what most people think about it, gustav is my favorite. I also fly the K every now and then, but the gustav handles much better. I fly the 109F every now and then, but not when I can fly the G.

Emils... just don't like em. They're the 190s of early early war ;-)

kun

Checkmate posted 01-13-99 07:55 PM ET (US)            

Well, I like 'em all. From the Emil right through the K. I can't tell you why, and if I think about it, I'll probably stop flying them ;-) The K and F started out as my favorites, but now the F is by far my first choice. I will switch to the G when it's available, but I'm still working on mastering that one. Who am I kidding, I'm still working on mastering any of them. And if the rumors are true, and we get the load out choice of 20 / 30MM canon on the K, I'll like 'em even more !

Ckmt

I./JG14 Adler

Baxl posted 01-13-99 09:12 PM ET (US)            

My favorite is the 109G6/R6. Since my gunnery is fair, those extra cannons come in handy!

And I like the paint scheme on it, too. It's arguably the most difficult plane to fly effectively.

Baxl CO *Pale Riders Squadron*

"On a Pale Horse, Death Does Ride"

Idiamn Stab JG27 Afrika posted 01-13-99 11:00 PM ET (US)         

Interesting note on "Emil"

Tonight in the P&D arena a few of us from JG27 did some training with "Emil" for upcoming b.o.b. and blitzkrieg scenarios.

It went like this:

109E vs. hurri one results: Dead Emil driver

109E vs. spit one results: Dead Emil driver

109E vs. hurri one results: Dead Emil driver

NONE of us are regular hurri or spit drivers.

Curious note: Emil fuel setting 30%, hurri one 50%....the hurri hung with the Emil during its climb long enough to prevent a decent hammer from applying killing shots, and also long enough for the hurri to tag emil! Egad! That sux!

The emil was flown using the vertical to max effort and yet could not shake the hurri!

SO!!!

Be VERY careful in "emil" fore its advantages are pretty much nil over spit one, and only MARGINALLY better over hurri one.

Methinks that a VERY gentle approach to a 1 on 1 match with the hurri needs to be used, otherwise you'll be eating lead from a decent hurri driver. (like we did )

I post this because from what I have read about performance characteristics, and what I have SEEN and experienced have been two different things when taking on the hurri one, and p40b in emil. I allways thought that "emil's" climb and speed advantage would make the hurri one a VERY easy target, but this is just not the case. Nor is emils climb rate a very effective tool against p40's, them suckers retain MEGA e and follow you right up too.

Now maybe all u guru's out there have no probs with them hurri's and p-40s and such, but to the marginal like meself, be careful. Methinks the "emil" is a bit over rated, and its climb cant really be counted on to win your fight against the other early war birds unless you have a HUGE E advantage.

Again, this is my experience in the arena's, yours may be different.

With Blitzkrieg coming up, us LW guys need to be careful out there

Hey....Nice cannons!

Idiamn

kdx VMF214 posted 01-13-99 11:14 PM ET (US)            

I think the K is much harder to use in this version of WB compared to previous ones due to "micro warp" effects. I don't think my gunnery has gone downhill that much, but the last TOD I was dissappointed when I couldn't do anything with the 30mm. I used to get in to about d2 or so before using the 30mm, but that distance now seems like entering the twilight zone. After about 3 very unfruitful sorties in the K, I went back to something with 6x50's. With those, D3-D4 is just fine.

kdx (VMF-214)

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-14-99 12:28 AM ET (US)            

Methinks these Emil drivers from jg27 are a bit too used to the FW and the super-easy 109f idi

I consistently kill Spit 1's and Hurri 1's from a co alt start in the main arena with the Emil. Sure the Spit will win if he's smart 1 vs 1, but not the hurri. The hurri will only win if you dont properly manage e.

Keep practicing, a Hurri is easier to duel than an Emil if you have little experience in either one. However if it's an experienced Emil pilot vs anyone in a hurri, the hurri dies plain and simple.

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

brendo posted 01-14-99 02:29 AM ET (US)            

Hey konrad and =eagd=, gotta watch those P40s eh?

Maybe I am not such an uneducated 'dweeb' if ik agrees with me? (winks)

A lot of the attitude towards the Hurricane comes from historical prejudice and how the Spitfire was put on pedistall. I respect any Hurricane even more so than a Spitfire in fact.

My observations in the Malta HA were that my 109F could turn with a Spit V for some short instantaneous moments (under specific conditions). However Hurri II drivers often turned so hard that I could never ever get a half second turn with them (again under certain conditions). My tactic is to make a burst deflection snap shot of cannon, and zoom upwards and back down

jv44.warbirds.org

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-14-99 07:26 AM ET (US)            

Just for clarification, i agree with you brendo that the p40b is an overall superior ac to the 109e. I do not think however, that the p40e measures up to the 109f. That's all.

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

KATSjg27 posted 01-14-99 02:52 PM ET (US)            

I disagree with all of you.

The 109e out accelerates the P40b, outclimbs the The p40 by 1000 ft/minute.

Teh P40 has a speed advantage of 5 -7mph under 10k and a turn rate advantage of .8 degrees per second.

So basically the differences are not significant between the 2 planes except for the 109's incredible climb advantage.

Now onto the 109f. It outperforms the P40b & E in every catagory except that the p40b has a 1.8 degree per second turn advantage.

Not only does it outperform the P40 series, it beats them badly in climb, acceleration, & top speed.

So, if your getting your butt kicked in a 109f by P40's don't blame Willy, there must be an obvious flaw in your technique.

1 note, using the 109's advantages are not ez. When I started learning them, I decided NOT try and live, but rather to try different ways using climb (different distances, G's climb angles etc) I died alot heheh, BUT you devolp a feel for what you can do and get away with that you cannot really put down in black and white numbers.

This is the beauty of the 109.

fd ski posted 01-14-99 03:12 PM ET (US)            

As much as i hate the idea I have to agree with Ik. Properly flown 109E will kill Hurri I in co alt merge situation. It will take a more then 1 merge, but a smart 109 driver will get a alt adventage and hurri driver can only sit there and watch.

Hurri is a love of mine, expecially since Battle of Briatin. In the back of my mind i do have a few thougth on how much of that cannon ammo ik would waste before disengaging in frustration from my hurri, but overall Hurri is a inferior airplane.

What you do have to realize is that in scenario there is no even start situation. My Hurri flight of 4 run into a lower flight of Hurries with 109's onto them, 4 k below us all together. We dove in and killed 4 of them. 109's didn't have a chance. We had a energy, and initiative ( and they didn't see us coming

Lot of 109 drivers make the same mistake. As soon as they see the Hurri they point that nose up and expect to be home free. Well, let me tell you, when i'm closing on the dot i always have more then enough speed for a full zoom over the top, and i will put a truck load of lead in your ass

109 driver has to know EXACLY how much energy does Hurricane in vinicity holds. Otherwise you're in for a nusty suprize

Bartlomiej Rajewski

S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF

ik Jagdgeschwader 77 posted 01-14-99 04:41 PM ET (US)            

mmmmmm kats sorry i disagree on one point. Overall, i see the p40b as superior to the Emil. I think the 1940 France HA proved this to everyone, including me.

Firepower: Emil has better firepower, but those cannon are low velocity and have a VERY short clip. The p40 has a truck load of ammo with better firepower than the Spit1 or Hurri1.

Speed: The p40b is faster in level flight up to 15k feet.

Dive: p40b dives faster, and compresses less.

Roll: p40b out rolls 109e at any speed.

Climb: sustained the Emil climbs better. In a zoom from equal e states the p40b zooms well enough to put a lot of rounds into the poor Emil's arse.

Durability: p40b is a tank.

High altitude performance: Emil definate winner here, unfortunately with Drunks and Stukas running around in Blitzkrieg this wont mean a thing.

Turn: p40b turns better.

is this enough?

Tschüß

ik

"I fly close to my man, aim well, and then he falls down." -Oswald Boelcke

Fenris posted 01-14-99 05:23 PM ET (US)            

I'm not going to throw around stats as these often have little pertinance in relation to WB..... From experience I find P40's a bigger threat than a hurri and so I am more careful when going against them (especially in an Emil).

But the one pearl of wisdom I have when it comes to the 109 is this: Never go into a fight at co-alt or lower.

No matter what 109 I'm in I use them as BnZ a/c (yes even the Franz) and subsequently I never willingly enter a fair fight. If I spot a dot at co-alt I will turn away and climb before returning to hand out the 20mm's. Using this base rule I usually survive and get a few kills to chalk up on my tail.

The 109 is still the plane I like most and killing ponies and spits in it is truely sweet.

See you guys soon

Hptm Fenris

1./JG27 Afrika

Kats posted 12-21-98 06:34 PM ET (US)  

Been away for awhile until Imol decides that my CC is good (better hurry, just booked 2 tickets to Italy on it hehehe) and have been reading the 500 page Falcon F16 manual, wicked game BTW. I came accross this in the designers notes, it's a conversation between Phil "hands" Handly and Adolf Galland in Germany.

"While flying F15's out of Germany, Hands had the opportunity to talk with Adolf Galland, the great WW2 German ace. Hands told the German ace that it was obvious to him that of Germany's WW2 fighters, the Fw190 was the superior aircraft based on published performance data. The Fw190 was faster, could turn better and could climb higher than the 109, the plane in which Galland recorded most of his kills. Adolf Galland smiled and said that Handley was correct in his analysis of the two aircrafts performances - but wrong in his assessment of which aircraft was superior. The German ace had flown both aircraft and believed that the 109 was superior because "flying it felt like a glove". It was smooth as silk and easy to control, whereas the Fw 190 was difficult and unruly. Galland could fly the 109 to his-and its-maximum performance, and this made it a better combat aircraft."

Interesting quote for a few reasons. Firstly, if you assume this is an accurate assesment of the two aircraft, it is obvious that roll inertia is still not modelled good enough in WB for people to consider the FW more manouverable (how many guys choose planes cause of roll inertia or rate???).

Secondly, I find the 109 trickier than most planes to fly. However the quote only compared the two planes, yet I think the 109 slow speed handling yucky (try using your turn radius advantage against a spit hehehe) and it's high speed performance even worse (although you can still fly with the trim tabs.....thank goodness).

I am not drawing any conclusions by this (I have never flown any ww2 plane) but I thought it good food for thought.

kats

Udie posted 12-21-98 06:50 PM ET (US)

When I first flew the 190 and 109 way back in like 1.02 or 1.03, right about the time they put the G model in WB, I hated the 190 and loved the 109 for the exact reason Mr. Galland said in your quote. The 190 was faster, but it was just to damned hard to control and much more unforgiving.

I chuckled a bit when I read that part of the designer's notes. I havent flown the 190 in a long time now though, so I don't know if this is still the case...

Udie

Mike posted 12-21-98 07:36 PM ET (US)            

Interesting.

You see, Galland states that the Fw 190 could 'climb higher' than the Bf 109...not true, is it?

My take on this? Galland learned to fight in his Bf 109...he'll always like it better. The Bf 109 is a better aircraft...for him. Same could be said for Hartmann maybe?

As far as handling...his comments are right on the mark in WB in my opinion, moreso below 300 MPH IAS than above it. The Fw 190 will snap into a spin or a 'turn' of the opposite direction very very very quickly with almost no warning unless you have lots of Fw 190 time and know what to look for. Having flown both aircraft alot in WB, I like the Bf 109 a great deal. You can get more 'pitch' out of it much easier at lower speeds.

I'll bet that if Galland began his career in a Fw 190, his opinion would be different.

Mike ('wulfie')

Kats posted 12-22-98 12:03 AM ET (US)            

Yes Mike, first thing that came into my head was, hey man you flew the 109's in Spain - obviously you are more used to it.

Just to be the devils advocate, it's more possible than not that he took his bias into consideration before making such a remark.

It seems to me that this would be a fair conclusion since he is/was a proffessional - and am quite sure he must have had this conversation with many other proffessionals on countless occasions.

vadr posted 12-22-98 12:40 AM ET (US)            

For what it's worth, I think Galland's comments are very well modeled in WB. I'm actually quite fond of the 109's low speed handling characteristics. True, you cannot stay "saddled up" on a spit or hurri, but if you use LOTS of rudder, and really work the throttle, you can maintain advantage. Either he makes a mistake, or you break off, either way, as the 109 Pilot, it's your choice. This is especially true of the F model. I kill a lot of Spit V's in furballs.

I've learned a great deal recently from 2 of my squadmates (Cyrano and Olivon) about using the 190 in combat. Properly flown, it is a devastating weapon. Both of these guys fly the A4 right through the end of the tour, and as you can see on any given night, they rack up tons of kills. (Olivon finished tour 32 ranked 5th).

Still, all of Galland's comments hold up: You cannot turn fight the 190 under any circumstances, and you must adapt your flying to the airplane. The 109 can be efective in all flight regimes, given certain concessions in time frame and quality of opponent aircraft.

The upshot for me is exactly in line with Alfie's comments: I feel very comfortable in the 109 at any point in the TOD. When I fly it, I win or lose based on my ability and knowledge of my aircraft and the opponent. The 190, while on the whole, I believe, is more effective, is not nearly as versatile. Given Germany's wealth of experienced pilots, this accurately models his hypothosis.

The experience of the german pilot corps in WWII, like their armored forces, cannot be discounted. Both groups were effective throughout the war, not because of superior equipment, but because of superior tactics, training, and experience. Put another way, they knew how to get the most out of their equipment. Their results cannot be judged on technical issues alone.

Just my $.02

PS hey Kats, tell those IMOL guys to get their act together, your squad misses you.

-vadr-

Bugjam posted 12-22-98 02:43 AM ET (US)            

I'm not the guy to talk about 109's because the only model I've flew more than 2 hours is F. But I fly 190 alot.

"The Fw190 was faster, could turn better and could climb higher than the 109"

Only one I recognise is that faster... which makes me think of the test I made offline just a few days ago. I tried to find (and I did)a B17, B25 and Ju88 turning at the max sustained turnrate. 190-A4 could barely follow B17, both B25 and Ju88 outturned 190. Was this really the case in RealLife??? Sounds a little strange to me... A month or two ago someone posted here a message about 190. 190 was a total surprise to allies. He wrote something like this:" ...Spitfire's turnrate was only marginally better to 190's..."

Bugjam, VMF-58 Wildcards

avin posted 12-22-98 02:52 AM ET (US)            

Yes Mike, first thing that came into my head was, hey man you flew the 109's in Spain - obviously you are more used to it.

Galland didn't fly Bf109s in Spain, did he? I thought he flew ground attack sorties in the He51.

I was under the impression he didn't get to transfer to fighters until the Blitz. Incorrect?

avin

Topcat posted 12-22-98 05:20 AM ET (US)            

Avin, I think you're right. Galland flew ground attack in Spain and in Poland, although I think that his Spanish outfit converted to 109's at about the time of Galland's departure. In fact, I believe that Galland spent about 1 week flying the 109 in Spain, but saw no air-to-air combat in it.

I'll have a look again at Galland's biography tonight, see if I can get an answer.

Topcat

249 "Gold Coast" Squadron RAF

"With Fists and Heels"

Part of the Duxford Wing

dadi 4th FG posted 12-22-98 12:16 PM ET (US)            

I'm pretty certain he didn't fly 109s til blitz in France. In Poland he flew ground attack.

funked posted 12-22-98 01:27 PM ET (US)            

Yes Galland flew ground attack in Spain, and in Poland as well if I remember. I think he flew a Heinkel or Henschel(?).

Nonetheless the bulk of his fighter pilot career (before he was whisked up the chain of command) took place early in the war in the Bf-109E and Bf-109F I recall he also flew earlier versions of the Bf-109 as well. At this point in the war the Bf-109 was still as good or better than the opposing allied fighter types, and he certainly had no lack of success with the Messerschmitt! The FW-190A had better objective performance, but during the bulk of Galland's career that performance simply wasn't needed by a pilot of his skill.

But if he had started in late 1944 flying Bf-109G, then transferred to a FW-190D9, I'm sure he would have preferred the latter, assuming he lived that long...

Funked Up

=925 CABS=

Mors Ab Alto!

Mutt posted 12-22-98 01:53 PM ET (US)            

I believe you are mistaking Galland for Molders. If I recall Werner Molders flew 109s in Spain and was partially if not totally responsible for the Schwarm Formation. Early war I believe Molders was a bigger part or factor. No slight against Galland.

The LW lost two of its greatest to freak accidents. Molders and Marseilles. What a loss.

Magnus posted 12-23-98 12:19 AM ET (US)            

190 driver here. I like the tempermental beast better than the 109, but you better keep it very fast where it will outturn a spit for a VERY short time in an instantaneous turn. BUT, if you even get close to sustained turn rates in the 190 your are a dead 190 driver. In my opinion, the 109 is not that way. Although I prefer the 190, a good 109 driver will almost always be able to stay defensive enough to find a way out of a bad situation even if they get down to sustained turn rates.

Given what I know about Galland "picking and choosing" his attacks, I think what he was saying is that even the best pilot can get caught with his "SA" pants down. If that happens he'd rather be in a 109. Therefore, since it gave him a better chance to survive, it is a better plane to him.

*Wulfie- good to hear from ya!

Magnus

Topcat posted 12-23-98 06:55 AM ET (US)            

The following is an extract taken from 'Adolf Galland, The Authorised Biography' by David Baker (1996) ISBN 1 85915 017 9. The book is a great read, and I'd recommend it to anyone with an interest in WW2 aviation.

Volunettr pilots usually saw four to six months action before returning to Germany, and Galland had already been in Spain for almost a year...... He played the system for as long as he could, hoping to keep command long enough for the coveted Messerschmitts to arrive...... Galland had begun to believe that he really might get just a brief period flying fighter patrols in a Bf109 when... a young German came up and introduced himself as Galland's successor, Lt Werner Moelders.... Before leaving Spain Galland had finally got the chance to make ten flights in the Bf109; and he was mightily impressed.

The book also mentions that Galland flew 280 sorties in Spain, in an He51.

Regards

Topcat

249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"

"With Fists and Heels"

Part of the Duxford Wing

Six pk posted 02-04-99 01:54 AM ET (US)        

Every time I look up the BF 109 K-4(in a differnant book) It says

"2 15mm MG151's in the cowl and a 30mm MK108/or MK 103.

So why doesn't the WB's K-4 have 2 15mm MG151's instead of 13mm MG's?

BTW I have not read every book but when I look up the 109 k-4 it's the same.And yes there are different configurations but this one is the 1st one mentioned...

Six-pk

DAMNED Mk XX Buff XO

www.damned.org

gatt posted 02-04-99 02:07 AM ET (US)            

Six-pk, this an old debate. Eh, I'm waiting for Kats, Wulf and Ik replies ....

Anyway some books and aces report the 15mm, while a lot report the classic MG151-13mm.

I have red a lot about it and I dont think there is not one response to your remark.

Since we are going to get the MG151-20mm cannon armed K-4 in the next WB version I think that this is not a majorn concern for our LW buffs.

Regards,

-gatt- JG27

jedi posted 02-04-99 10:04 AM ET (US)            

Wouldn't it be neat if the flight model, interface, and RPS were set up so that, as different armament "packs" used in the field became available, we could opt to "install" them in our planes, paying the proper penalty in weight, roll rate, etc?

109K drivers could have their 15mm, Ki-84 guys could have the 4 20mm version at some point, maybe even bring back the Hog of Death on the last day with the jets Pretty sure there was a Spit with 4 50s and the 20mm, instead of the 2 50s we have now.

--jedi

Bugjam posted 02-04-99 10:09 AM ET (US)            

Good idea Jedi!! And I have seen picture of Spt V with 4 x 20mm cannons and wing tips removed... British answer to arising threat of FW190 A4.

Bugjam, VMF-58 Wildcards

Kats posted 02-04-99 10:41 AM ET (US)            

Jedi: Didn't Imol mention that this idea is a goal of theirs in the near future?

Imol got the 109k4 correct, for the most part this plane was delivered with a mk108 cannon and 2 Mg131 machine guns. Some were delivered with a MG151/20 engine mounted cannon as well.

The best source (most up to date)for this type of info is Me109 F/G/K series by Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike. More information is known today than when some older books were written on the subject. For eg, loss reports as well as factory & RLM records, as well as scores of until recently unpublished photographs.

wulf posted 02-04-99 11:01 AM ET (US)            

Brown (the guy who wrote the book) read some documents in Germany about the K having 15mm cowl guns. It was never done however.

But because 80% of the books for the next 20 years were basically re-writes of Brown's data (as opposed to doing research on their own), the 15mm 'myth' became widespread.

The K had 13mm MGs in the cowl. One thing you will see with the K is the option for a 2cm MG 151/20 firing thru the spinner. The K had wiring and mounts allowing for either the 3cm MK 108 and the 2cm MG 151/20 to fire thru the spinner. Some Ks also had provisions for mounting a 3cm MK 103 (a very very sick weapon...low ROF but a 3cm weapon with a higher muzzle velocity than the 2cm MG 151/20) to fire thru the spinner.

On a side note, many think that MK 108 = 'mark 108 cannon'. This is not the case.

MG 151/20 = machinegerwehr 151/20 (machine gun model 151, projectile size 20mm, some Bf 109Fs had MG 151/15s firing thru the spinner).

MK 108 = machinekanone 108 (machine cannon model 108...I think all LW used 'machine cannon' were 3cm weapons, the 3.7cm and 5cm weapons carried by the Ju 87, Ju 88, Me 410, Hs 129, etc. had the designator 'BK', but I don't know what it stood for in German).

Some others...

FlaK = Fliegerabwehrkanone = aircraft defense cannon = anti aircraft gun.

PaK = Panzerabwehrkanone = AFV defense cannon = anti 'tank' gun (I hate the term 'tank', AFV is where it is at...for armored fighting vehicle).

...for example...the 8.8cm FlaK 18 was an 88mm AA gun that was often converted for use as an AT weapon. It used an 88L56 gun. Later in the war, a purpose built 88mm AT gun was designed and produced (a really powerful one, using an 88L71 gun)...this weapon was called the 8.8cm PaK 43.

Sorry, good coffee this morning and I had 4 cups. I'm really talkative. 8)

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Mike ('-wulf-', 2./JG 14)