Posted by: Chip Faulkner

Posted on: 17:00:43 11/09/98

Message:

After diving down on a target, and after taking a shot, what is the best method of getting back into an altitude advantage? Should I Immelman up? Should I extend a ways before climbing again? Or should I just climb back up at about 45 degrees immediately after passing the target?

Thanks,

Chip Faulkner

Posted by: jedi

Message:

: After diving down on a target, and after taking a shot, what is the best method of getting back into an altitude advantage? Should I Immelman up? Should I extend a ways before climbing again? Or should I just climb back up at about 45 degrees immediately after passing the target?

If you are BnZ'ing in an airplane that you don't want to be turnfighting in (Corsair, Jug, Mustang, 190), you need to analyze the numbers before you dive in. If you are going into a 1 vs many situation or maybe going in to help someone who is being gang-banged, realize that the ONLY advantage you have is that your energy state allows you to remain "safe" for a few passes. That safety depends not so much on altitude as it does on speed. In that case, you may want to extend with a shallow climb, preserving your speed and quickly separating from the numerically superior enemy.

If you have even numbers or an advantage, you can squander that advantage by swooping through the fight and extending out of sight--you give up the numbers advantage by only being in the fight for a few seconds every minute. In that case, the near vertical Zoom may be best--it allows you to quickly reattack and keep up the pressure.

In either case, if your target is able to evade you more than about 3 times in a row without you scoring significant damage to him, he may well be better at defending than you are at attacking. The corollary is that he's also probably better at attacking than you are at defending. As soon as you see that you can't get farther away than d15 or so from him on your zoom, it's probably time to run.

--jedi

Posted by: Dolfo (1/JG14)

Message:

Don't zoom in such a way that you're within 30* of the guy's nose. I get a lot of kills on people who zoom in the direction of my flight path. You can get seperation really fast with your E, but it takes a second to get outside guns range, and sometimes that's all I (probably lots of people) need to ping your oilpan.

You do better to break so that you're not a target right after the pass. Always try to zoom so that you're making the bogie bleed as much E as possible if he tries to acquire you (i.e. zoom toward his 5 o'clock, so he has to pull up AND roll to follow.) If you see him pulling up to follow, pull back in your zoom so that he has to roll again or use negative G to keep you in sight. (I always try to put my plane on the other guy's cold side. That's generally a good guns D in most situations.) This might bleed your E a bit faster too, but it keeps you in his rear quarter, and if he tries to convert, he's gonna flounder way before you do (hopefully without any idea where you are)

Posted by: Bino (II./JG54)

Message:

The comments below are on the mark. I would just add that it may also depend on who else is in the neighborhood. If I'm all alone over a badguy cloud I'll sustain the zoom climb a little while longer to maximize my altitude advantage. (Each plane will do its best zoom in a different way at different speeds. Musashi: "You must practise diligently...") If I want to keep the pressure on a lone target, I'll reverse as soon as I can: vertically, sure, but with the emphasis on getting my nose pointed back at the target, rather than on gaining the most altitude.

bino--

Posted by: mikess

Message:

depending on their E state. If low, do a loop and kill him. If they are going at a decent speed, do a gentle climb out and then reverse. Maybe 10-20 degrees for a bit so you don't burn too much E. It also depends on the plane you are flying. If you are in a spit, it doesn't really matter as much as if you are flying a 47.

Posted by: Disco Fever ==df==

Message:

It all depends on what the target you just dove on does. Generally extending before climbing isn't a good thing to do. It bleeds your E so your not going to be able to get as much of an alt advantage back. Your zoom should be dictated by the con's evasive. Try so keep your advantage and stay within about d20 of the con. This way you are keeping the pressure on and not giving him as much time to evade your next boom. An Immelman or a wing over works well when the con has rolled 90 degrees and and turned 90-180 degrees. Just be sure to get over the top and come back down on him if you do an Immelman. If the con does a Split S don't follow. Zoom as soon as you see him do it and get set for your next boom. -Disco Fever ==df==

Posted by: nrts - =4thFG=

Message:

the most satisfying move in WB, IMHO... is one I did not 5 minutes ago in 110C. I boomed in and missed a spit and he latched onto my tail at about d13. I pulled straight up into my zoom and saw the spit close to d10. I held the zoom straight up until I stalled and the nose flicked straight down and there was the spit in front of me floundering which I promply sawed in half. I must say it is my favorite move in 109, p38, 110, Ki84 and other good climbers.

-nrts-

Posted by: Vicious ~Hell's Aces~

Message:

Good climbers? You don't need a good climber, you just need speed. You just described the old 'rope-a-dope' and I do it in my Jug all the time. It's a piece of cake to sucker some fool into following you straight up. Judging the enemas E state is the part you need experience for.

Vicious aka --vics

Posted by: Flapz

Message:

yea, but if you misjudge the Estate of the other plane.... u b ded... Especially with the new gunnery model where spits can kill a FW at D9.

Flapz

Posted by: luigip 4°Stormo Caccia

Message:

I try it too with 109 and "other good climbers", but most often the spit at d10 saws ME in half a nanosecond before getting him into my gunsight... is it only a question of chanche?

Posted by: nrts - =4thFG=

Message:

:I try it too with 109 and "other good climbers", but most often the spit at d10 saws ME in half a nanosecond before getting him into my gunsight... is it only a question of chanche?

You have to be pretty confident that you have a few more joules of energy than the spit. A good rule of thumb I use is that I never pull straight up unless my energy in level flight would have been good enough to pull away. You *are* going to give up some distance to the pursuer with this move and so must judge whether or not you will put him in guns range and how long you have to hold the zoom for him to stall.

About half the time I end up in a vertical HO but the guy climbing in the HO is at a disadvantage so it has been a good thing overall.

-nrts-

Posted by: funked =925 CABS=

Message:

Well first, you should go into Argo's Bookshop and buy Bob Shaw's "Fighter Combat" which has a large section devoted to this kind of flying.

Anyways the key thing is to NOT overshoot under the bandit. If he has a decent amount of speed he can fly lead pursuit and stay within guns range long enough to hurt you, force you to extend, or even force you to dive away.

So when you are diving, go ahead and pull out of the dive early if it is obvious he will spoil your guns pass.

Anyways, assuming you didn't screw the pooch by overshooting too much, and the bandit is not going very fast, the best thing to do is pull completely vertical. This will convert the maximum amount of your kinetic energy into potential energy. Remember the whole point of fighting in the vertical like this is to enable you to reverse with minimum energy loss.

Pitch the plane back fully vertical. Do this gradually - don't just yank the stick. If you pull about 3 g's you will have a nice balance between a quick zoom and maintaining energy. Once you are vertical, roll so that you can observe the bandit.

At the top of your zoom you can either come straight back down or maneuver horizontally to get almost directly above the bandit, then repeat the process.

The key thing is that before you zoom, make sure he can't shoot at you while you do it. You have to judge his energy state and be sure he can't close to within d10 or so while you zoom. Otherwise you have to extend, dive, etc.

Buy the book!!!

Posted by: holst-FT (Flying Tigers)

Message:

: So when you are diving, go ahead and pull out of the dive early if it is obvious he will spoil your guns pass.

This is paramount. If you see him start to wing over pull up. In most cases, if I even see that he knows I'm there I just go around. Usually I'm carrying too much E to adjust much on the initial pass. Pulling up allows you to burn a little of the E while still maintaining a total advantage. It also often makes the victim do something stupid in a panic. I like to hover at the top of climb to see how hes dealing with me.

: Pitch the plane back fully vertical. Do this gradually - don't just yank the stick. If you pull about 3 g's you will have a nice balance between a quick zoom and maintaining energy. Once you are vertical, roll so that you can observe the bandit.

I have to take issue with the last bit. I don't usually roll in the zoom. I'd rather not waste the E in the climb by rolling...hes not going anywhere very fast. Instead, I like to finish my climb and hold it just on the edge of a stall inverted. This extends that moment of indecision that you feel when you're being BnZ'd and you're figuring out what defense to use, and I've found that the victim is more likely to tip his hand if you linger at the top.

: The key thing is that before you zoom, make sure he can't shoot at you while you do it. You have to judge his energy state and be sure he can't close to within d10 or so while you zoom. Otherwise you have to extend, dive, etc.

Yes, be super careful bnzing 109ks, ki84s and the like. They can get on top or co-e to you very easily, and if you're in a 47 or a 190A you're screwed if this happens, as your ability to extend is at best marginal. Zekes and 38s can cause problems too if the have some E and manage not to get shot on the pass, as they can go vertical quickly and stand on their tails shooting at you.

holst-FT

Posted by: funked =925 CABS=

Message:

If you release the controls and let the engine torque roll you, this actually reduces drag (no aileron deflection).

Otherwise we are on exactly the same wavelength.

Ack-boy

Posted by: holst-FT (Flying Tigers)

Message:

: If you release the controls and let the engine torque roll you, this actually reduces drag (no aileron deflection).

Actually in a straight climb at v/high power and low speed, a large portion of the rolling tendency will be due to P-Factor. :P

: Otherwise we are on exactly the same wavelength.

I think technically speaking that would be frequency. :P:P:P

: Ack-boy

Fearless Bus Slaye

Posted by: holst-FT (Flying Tigers)

Message:

Actually p-factor is the tendency of the aircraft to roll, particularly during low speed, high power situations due to the slight difference in angle of attack of the propellor airfoil as it climbs from when it descends. Now, uh, I can't remember one is the bad side. In fact, I have trouble remembering which way a prop spins, but I swear it exists.

Personally I think it ought to stand for "pee in your pants factor" since the only time it really becomes serious (at least in the miserable little puddlejumpers I've flown) is when you're already peeing in your pants.

Posted by: Black Shriner (-blk--)

: Actually p-factor is the tendency of the aircraft to roll, particularly during low speed, high power situations due to the slight difference in angle of attack of the propellor airfoil as it climbs from when it descends. Now, uh, I can't remember one is the bad side. In fact, I have trouble remembering which way a prop spins, but I swear it exists.

P factor actually doesn't roll you at all. P factor is a yaw (which induces a bit of roll if unchecked). Because the prop spins clockwise when viewed from the cockpit, the blade moving down (on the right side) produces more thrust than the left, because it has a higher Angle of Attack. Thus, the right side produces more thrust than the left, which causes the aircraft to yaw left.

: Personally I think it ought to stand for "pee in your pants factor" since the only time it really becomes serious (at least in the miserable little puddlejumpers I've flown) is when you're already peeing in your pants.

Boy howdy. If you don't touch the rudders in WB, you can see it in the underpowered aircraft like the Airacobra. It's real noticeable behind the power curve (mushing along above the runway at high AoA and high power).

-blk--

PS-I thought I was one of the few that still has problems remembering which way the screw turns...

Posted by: holst-FT (Flying Tigers)

Message:

: P factor actually doesn't roll you at all.

Oh, it does too. At least if you're like me and you think those little footrests are just too darned far back and they need to be ratcheted up...

:P factor is a yaw (which induces a bit of roll if unchecked). Because the prop spins clockwise when viewed from the cockpit, the blade moving down (on the right side) produces more thrust than the left, because it has a higher Angle of Attack. Thus, the right side produces more thrust than the left, which causes the aircraft to yaw left.

Uh, yeah yeah...exactly what I was uh...sayin. hmm.

: Boy howdy. If you don't touch the rudders in WB, you can see it in the underpowered aircraft like the Airacobra. It's real noticeable behind the power curve (mushing along above the runway at high AoA and high power).

P-in your pants territory if ever I've seen it. At least in RL, in WB its kinda fun...

: -blk--

: PS-I thought I was one of the few that still has problems remembering which way the screw turns...

No! There are legions of us out here! Join in brother directionally challenged fella!

holst-FT

From: =para=

Newsgroups: warbirds.training

Steve Gould wrote:

I have been trying to find the best angle for a zoom climb. I can't seem to get anywhere near the altitude that the performance profiles suggest.

Can anyone lend some advice?

As Wells mentioned (just to reiterate), the angle doesn't matter except for the effect of the exrta speed loss through extra drag if you pull up sharply.

The expected altitude gain from the kinetic energy (assuming flight in vacuum and constant gravity) is just the difference of the V (in ft/s) squareds over 2g (where g = 32.2 ft/s/s)

Of course WWII wasn't fought in a vacuum ;), but drag and power sort of cancel out so it's a decent approximation.

Example: 250 MPH TAS dropping to 150 MPH TAS starting at 10,000 ft alt should be about (427*427 - 256*256)/(2 * 32.2) = 1813 ft

Note that max SUSTAINED climb rates (not zoom climbs) are perhaps much slower than a person might think: 2500 to 4000 ft/min (thats per minute ;)

To maximize those, just set the proper climb speed. Around 140-180 MPH IAS for most planes, I think. Faster or slower and you will hurt yourself through incurring extra drag that just wastes some of your limited climb power.

The flight path angle will be pretty low. (even 4000 ft/min over 140 mph at 10000ft alt is only about 16 degrees. Note that the nose will point somewhat above the flight path.)

- Matt

WB: =para=